Another US School Shooting

[Richards 0]

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"stop on your own" good for you

Thank you. I should not have had to though. If I had been singled out for being a minority the teachers would have been immediately jumped in to stop it.

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"Take pleasure in returning the favour (repeatedly with smileys)" so the bullied becomes the bully

I don't know if you could have called me a bully since the ones I was going after were "tough guys" who had brought it on themselves, rather than little weak guys who could not defend themselves. Perhaps "vigilante" might have been a more appropriate analogy since I not only returned the favour to those who harmed me, but also made a point of intervening when I saw it happenning to someone else. By grade 11/12 if I saw some asshole terrorizing/humiliating some grade nine student or some little guy who couldn't defend himself then I stepped in and dispensed a little lesson in humiliation to the bastard. I am not saying it was right but I can guarante that if I did not step in no-one else would have (not even teachers). Sometimes a bully needs a little public humiliation before he wakes up and stops that nonsense.

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"exorcising any of my demons" that should have happened when you stopped it on your own instead of needing to push the point - a bit middle eastern dominant attitude don't you think?

I cannot argue that point fully because I acknowledge that my approach to these things was a bit archaic but it did seem appropriate at the time. After years of being the target while teachers stood by and did nothing it felt good to be able to provide the justice that the system could have provided but chose not to. Would I do that today? No. So i guess you could take that as a concession that you are right

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That was one of the saddest posts I've read in a long time. Do you think if you'd have not "doubled in size" you might have taken your Dad's gun to school?

It wasn't all bad. Again by about midway through grade 10 I seemed to do a 180 with my social life and suddenly had lots of freinds and got invited to all the important parties. After that I matured socially and found life much more tolerable.

Would I have taken a gun to school? No. If you really are that desperate for revenge at someone who is tormenting you (and i am not saying that revenge is acceptable) then you should take it directly to the individual who harmed you. Guys who do these school shootings not only kill innocent students who did nothing to them, they also cause lifetime psychological scarring to the people who survive the shooting. I can never condone or excuse that.

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Your point is good though - Teachers/faculty need to be adults and protect ALL the kids instead of soft pedaling their little PC social program rules of conduct. And parents need to authorize it. Teachers are purposely tying their hands with PC thuggery in order to avoid having any responsibility for doing the right thing with kids.

Thank you. I am actually a big fan of the principle behind these "Zero Tolerance" policies at schools. I realise that there have been arguments that it has not been applied in an equitable manner and some students have been penalised stupidly for carrying scissors to art class, which is dumb.

You social status and your ability to defend yourself should not dictate your high school experience

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[JohnRich 4]

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Come on dude - remember Dunblane.
Then we banned hand guns and it hasn't happened again.

England has just been lucky. They were rare events to start with. The passage of 7 or 8 years since the handgun confiscation means nothing about a reduced probability of another school attack.

Canada thought they had their problem licked with their gun registration. And then a few short months ago, they found out that all the King's gun control meant nothing, because it happened again.

Gun control doesn't stop deranged people from killing kids. Even if you could somehow magically vaporize all guns, the deranged would just choose another method, like explosives, or gasoline. People willing to die for their "cause" don't give a whit about stupid gun control laws.

Gun control efforts are futile.

And taking them away from responsible law-abiding people just magnifies the problem of the criminals, because then there is no one to stop them.

Some of you may have noted the difference in response between Columbine and the latest shootings. At Columbine, the police didn't go inside to confront the shooters. They set up a command post outside, cordoned off the area, established communication systems, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, kids were dying inside. Because of this, the procedure is changed. The cops are to go inside immediately, confront the shooter, and kill him. This minimized casualties in the most recent incident.

All it takes is one brave man with a gun to stop these bastards.

[kallend 2,117]

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Come on dude - remember Dunblane.
Then we banned hand guns and it hasn't happened again.

England has just been lucky. They were rare events to start with. The passage of 7 or 8 years since the handgun confiscation means nothing about a reduced probability of another school attack.

Canada thought they had their problem licked with their gun registration. And then a few short months ago, they found out that all the King's gun control meant nothing, because it happened again.

Gun control doesn't stop deranged people from killing kids. Even if you could somehow magically vaporize all guns, the deranged would just choose another method, like explosives, or gasoline. People willing to die for their "cause" don't give a whit about stupid gun control laws.

Gun control efforts are futile.

And taking them away from responsible law-abiding people just magnifies the problem of the criminals, because then there is no one to stop them.

Some of you may have noted the difference in response between Columbine and the latest shootings. At Columbine, the police didn't go inside to confront the shooters. They set up a command post outside, cordoned off the area, established communication systems, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, kids were dying inside. Because of this, the procedure is changed. The cops are to go inside immediately, confront the shooter, and kill him. This minimized casualties in the most recent incident.

All it takes is one brave man with a gun to stop these bastards.

Do you really think the only way to stop Americans from shooting up schools is to arm everyone?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pirana 0]

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Do you really think the only way to stop Americans from shooting up schools is to arm everyone?

It does seem a bit twisted. People with guns are killing kids, therefore we'd all be safer if there were more guns instead of less.

As is mentioned elsewhere, there is a lot more to it than availability of guns. That being said, access to them is way too easy.

If I were King, you'd have to have a squeaky clean record to own a gun. Any violent crimes, a single conviction for battery, assault, domestic abuse, even a DWI - no gun for you, EVER! Anything more than a petty midemeanor, no way you have the integrity to own a gun.

Hard core, but there is so much at stake. In my world, you would have to prove yourself to be not just of sound mind, but of exemplary judgement before you get the chance to own a firearm.

So I guess it just goes to how you define "responsible law-abiding citizen." Getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk meets my definition of irresponsible. Same for fighting, beating your wife or kids (or both), or damn near any other crime. Start there.

Won't happen though, at least not for a long time. The NRA is so paranoid at giving any ground at all that they and their lapdog politicians won't even let a ban on assault rifles pass. They are pathetic in their dogmatic approach to keeping access to guns as wide open as they can.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kelpdiver 2]

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Come on dude - remember Dunblane.

Then we banned hand guns and it hasn't happened again.

From the details of that incident, I think he would have been just as successful without hand guns. This guy yesterday came with sharp objects as well as firearms.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Won't happen though, at least not for a long time. The NRA is so paranoid at giving any ground at all that they and their lapdog politicians won't even let a ban on assault rifles pass. They are pathetic in their dogmatic approach to keeping access to guns as wide open as they can.

The NRA has good reason to be paranoid. In the late 90s, flush with success, many of the anti gun groups dropped any pretense in their intent to enact a total ban, or the methods that would be used.

Lapdog politicians? I'd prefer to refer to them as serving their constituites. The power of the NRA comes from the 4-5M members, not from the fairly small gun industry. The Democratic Party learned this lesson in 2000, and hasn't forcefully promoted the gun issue on their platform since. Very much like the GOP with abortion.

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I find it troubling that one older man did this just a few days after another did. Too much attention given to people who seek exactly that. And in the past when people were deterred with guns, no mention made. Just furthers the notion that this is an easy place to do your thing.

Arming the schools? Maybe it's reasonable to treat the teachers as we do pilots - allow those interested to get training. Make it publicly known that teachers are doing so. (and don't sabotage the program as the FAA has tried to do)

[Amazon 7]

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Synchronized swimming!

Hey its a VERY hard sport to compete in....

[rehmwa 2]

I think that's a great post. thank you. and even better that once you 'came into your own' you stuck up for those that couldn't (agreed that it's a shame you had to and not the grownups in the school).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Canada thought they had their problem licked with their gun registration. And then a few short months ago, they found out that all the King's gun control meant nothing, because it happened again.

Stuff like this shows you rarely know what you are talking about, unless it is about technical issues directly related to the gun as a mechanism. Other than that, you may want to leave the thinking to other people....

I'll give you one chance to try and redeem yourself and show you have half a clue. Back up this statement by anything official from Canada:

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Canada thought they had their problem licked....

Do you know who is trying to scrap the program? Do you know who is feverishly fighting that?

I won't hold my breath......

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you really think the only way to stop Americans from shooting up schools is to arm everyone?

I think that in John's experience, people were (once upon a time) raised in an environment where parents were able to trust their kids to responsibly own and use guns.

I was raised that way and all my friends, and if one of them was enraged to the point of being out of control and he was holding a gun, he'd drop it and attack his antagonist with bare hands. He'd never, EVER, even consider the gun for that purpose. Even more likely, he'd maintain control no matter what.

It's not so much the guns, as the upbringing of these kids that (that JR is associating with responsible gun ownership) that he is desiring.

Briefly, if all kids were raised to respect life and hold personal responsibility to the extent that we could trust them with guns, these schools would definitely be a better and safer environment. Because the kids would be better behaved and respectful - it wouldn't matter if they brought in guns or not.

I think that's a great vision. But it's not a general fix, it would only apply locally.

The opposite vision is rather pathetic - the cynical viewpoint that we can't expect the best of our kids. I think that vision stinks.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Enrique 0]

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if all kids were raised to respect life and hold personal responsibility

IMHO, that would be hard for a parent to achieve when the public (including kids) is exposed to actions that contradict such ideals (i.e., the government sets a different example).

[rehmwa 2]

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if all kids were raised to respect life and hold personal responsibility

IMHO, that would be hard for a parent to achieve when the public (including kids) is exposed to actions that contradict such ideals (i.e., the government sets a different example).

it's about personal choices at home - any family that is so obsessed about 'government policy' to allow it to affect the raising of children has bigger issues than that

I hope my daughter takes her cue from me and my wife and from our expectations of her. Not Foley, or GWB, or Hillary, or Cheney, or the mayor, or Chirac, or Gorbachev, or Osama, or etc etc, ad NAUSEUM or some other person NOT involved directly in her upbringing.

I think your comment is a cop out to the extreme.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Enrique 0]

You are entirely right. It's a matter of exposing your children to the right role-models.

[rehmwa 2]

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You are entirely right. It's a matter of exposing your children to the right role-models.

Well, that certainly took the wind out my sails....
have a nice day

(and if we can't find many other role models in the public space, then it's even more important that we become those role models ourselves and make friends that will also be good role models for our children so they have them no matter what else happens in their lives - in fact, I prefer that. I'm proud of my friends and glad my daughter is exposed to them more than people on TV or the news.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,117]

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Do you really think the only way to stop Americans from shooting up schools is to arm everyone?

I think that in John's experience, people were (once upon a time) raised in an environment where parents were able to trust their kids to responsibly own and use guns.

I was raised that way and all my friends, and if one of them was enraged to the point of being out of control and he was holding a gun, he'd drop it and attack his antagonist with bare hands. He'd never, EVER, even consider the gun for that purpose. Even more likely, he'd maintain control no matter what.

It's not so much the guns, as the upbringing of these kids that (that JR is associating with responsible gun ownership) that he is desiring.

Briefly, if all kids were raised to respect life and hold personal responsibility to the extent that we could trust them with guns, these schools would definitely be a better and safer environment. Because the kids would be better behaved and respectful - it wouldn't matter if they brought in guns or not.

I think that's a great vision. But it's not a general fix, it would only apply locally.

The opposite vision is rather pathetic - the cynical viewpoint that we can't expect the best of our kids. I think that vision stinks.

Well, if all kids were raised correctly, we wouldn't need to defend schools anyway.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 30]

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England has just been lucky.

It has very little to do with luck, and much to do with the culture.

Remster

[DaVinci 0]

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In Reply To
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RIGHT! Blame the schools!

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Like it or not, he has a valid point about schools being attractive targets for people looking for fame. A childs death is much more powerful than an adults death and schools are filled with kids. A school being a gun free zone does mean that the gunman will encounter less trouble.

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Yes, blame the victim.

Sorry, not blaming the victim. Trying to explain a tactical reason. I thought you be able to understand that. Blaming the victim would be saying they had it coming, not trying to show you the reasons why a nutjob would find a school a nice target. I tried to explain that, but it seems you would rather mis-direct and use one liners.

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What does that have to do with this?

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Not been paying attention, have you?

All I have seen is how you are trying to mis-direct instead of looking at the issues. People gave valid reasons why a school would be an ideal target for someone looking to do harm and you refuse to do anything but be a distraction.

[Michele 1]

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Trying to explain a tactical reason. I thought you be able to understand that. Blaming the victim would be saying they had it coming, not trying to show you the reasons why a nutjob would find a school a nice target

I understood what you meant...

Victimology is a soft science; it details what a bad guy looks for with a particular end in mind. It is something that is very easily spotted in some serial killers' mo (i.e. Bundy, The Green River Killer) and not so apparent with others (The Night Stalker, Gein). The beginning of understanding who is a victim and why does indeed give potential victims a slight advantage in understanding why they might be victims. That's not blaming the victim. There are other avenues of victimology, including rape, spree murders (like school killings), workplace violence, and so on. Again, it has far more to do with the bad guy and understanding his/their motives, and does NOT blame the victim whatsoever.

It's a bit like understanding why a lioness culls the pack for a certain animal; there are different things they actively look for, and will stalk that which they find attractive for whatever reason (i.e. ill, unable to fight back, weak, infirm...). That's pure victimology; it does not blame the animal for being weak; it does, however, demonstrate the predatory nature of the lionness.

Understanding why people do what they do necessarily includes understanding who they do it to, or who would make a likely target. Not blaming the victim in any way, just understanding it more fully.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[JohnRich 4]

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If I were King, you'd have to have a squeaky clean record to own a gun. Any violent crimes, a single conviction for battery, assault, domestic abuse, even a DWI - no gun for you, EVER! Anything more than a petty midemeanor, no way you have the integrity to own a gun.

Hard core, but there is so much at stake. In my world, you would have to prove yourself to be not just of sound mind, but of exemplary judgement before you get the chance to own a firearm.

So I guess it just goes to how you define "responsible law-abiding citizen." Getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk meets my definition of irresponsible. Same for fighting, beating your wife or kids (or both), or damn near any other crime. Start there.

Won't happen though, at least not for a long time. The NRA is so paranoid at giving any ground at all that they and their lapdog politicians won't even let a ban on assault rifles pass. They are pathetic in their dogmatic approach to keeping access to guns as wide open as they can.

Your comment, above, reveals how little you actually know about American gun laws. You have apparently been misled by your media about such things. So let me enlighten you. Most of the things on your wish list are already true.

Violent crimes and domestic abuse are already disqualifiers. If someone has unsound judgement, they usually develop a criminal record fairly quick in life, and that becomes a disqualifier. The purchaser of every gun sold by gun dealers is personally vetted by the FBI to see if he is qualified to own a gun.

The ban on assault rifles DID pass. It was in effect for 10 years, and then expired. Guess what? No change in gun crime rates occurred either after it was passed, or after it expired. It was meaningless symbolism.

And finally, your perception of the NRA is wrong, if for no other reason, because all of your other ideas are wrong. So, based upon a heap of false assumptions, you presume yet another untrue myth about the NRA.

[JohnRich 4]

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It's a bit like understanding why a lioness culls the pack for a certain animal; there are different things they actively look for, and will stalk that which they find attractive for whatever reason (i.e. ill, unable to fight back, weak, infirm...). That's pure victimology; it does not blame the animal for being weak; it does, however, demonstrate the predatory nature of the lionness.

Understanding why people do what they do necessarily includes understanding who they do it to, or who would make a likely target. Not blaming the victim in any way, just understanding it more fully.

Excellent analogy!

[DaVinci 0]

Wow, very nicely put.

[JohnRich 4]

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England has just been lucky.

It has very little to do with luck, and much to do with the culture.

You're correct. It's not about guns. It's about culture.

[craddock 0]

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In this case it was a one room Amish School. Gun free zone or not, I don't think there would have been too many guns in that place regardless.

Can you clarify please? Are you saying there would not be 'too many guns' because it is a one room school? If a teacher choose to arm themselves in a one room school, how many guns do you think they would actually need? Or do you mean because it was an Amish school there would be to many guns. Either way I don't understand you choice of the words "too many guns" because as you point out this is a one room school.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[kallend 2,117]

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England has just been lucky.

It has very little to do with luck, and much to do with the culture.

You're correct. It's not about guns. It's about culture.

RIGHT! A culture that does not worship guns.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 30]

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England has just been lucky.

It has very little to do with luck, and much to do with the culture.

You're correct. It's not about guns. It's about culture.

Actually, its about a culture of violence and guns

Remster