For all the people that like to bash Bush and Iraq

[freeflir29 0]

So I hear everyone going on and on about how wrong everything has been done. What's your grand solution? If you were President today.......how would you fix all this. Please........don't say dumb shit "Pull out of Iraq" and then not provide a timeline of the repercussions of your actions. Since obviously.......something like that would have a rather large effect on the world. Have at it. I am really am interested in what you have to say. Well........except for one person that is mentally unstable.

[Tonto 1]

Well, that's not really fair, is it?

Do a search of this forum and you'll see I said it was a mistake before it happened. I've had my own involvement with a difficult to win little war down here at the end of Africa, and know from expreience that wars like Vietnam, the Rhodesian and South African Bush wars, etc CANNOT be won.

You're asking what to do when you've been bitten by a snake, when the right thing to do is not step on it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freeflir29 0]

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You're asking what to do when you've been bitten by a snake, when the right thing to do is not step on it.

Yeah but if it's in your house you have to do something. It's just that everyone has been crying about this "Sword of Damaclese" report. So I want someone to tell me how they would fix it. Doesn't matter what is in the past. Lets talk about the future.

[Tonto 1]

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Doesn't matter what is in the past. Lets talk about the future.

I'm thinking of someone at the back of the plane, shouting "Don't go!" to a dude wearing dodgy gear climbing out low on a spot that sucks on a dive that doesn't need to happen.

You're in freefall with a double mal saying "Lets talk about the future."

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freeflir29 0]

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"Lets talk about the future."

That I would..........I'd be thinking how to fix that mal and live.

[Tonto 1]

The answer is keep fighting till you get sand in your eyes, or sort it out. I've only had one (small) reserve malfunction, and I managed to sort it out, and land on the DZ next to the catchers.

I don't think you're in that postion though. Shouting "Mission Accomplished" after leaving the door means little. There is more to a skydive than leaving the door. Shouting "Bring it on!" when your main malfunctions is hard core though. That would raise a few eyebrows at most DZ's.

Have you checked the spot yet?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Erroll 80]

(All this skydiving stuff contributes nothing to the thread.)

I have been following all the discussions on the war in Iraq, and I too would honestly like to hear how folks will answer Clay's question. Not only the Bush bashers and anti-war people, but also people like Clay and Max and other vets, who have an intimate knowledge of the situation.

We down here in SA are far removed from all of this but it does still affect us in many ways, and I am quite interested in how people think this 'mess can be fixed'.

[Tonto 1]

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(All this skydiving stuff contributes nothing to the thread.)

If there was more "skydiving stuff" the world would be a better place!
We should be running AFF courses in Iraq, and forming 4 way teams, and teaching people to freefly and jump wingsuits.

Then we'd see politics and sectarian violence!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Erroll 80]

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(All this skydiving stuff contributes nothing to the thread.)

If there was more "skydiving stuff" the world would be a better place!
We should be running AFF courses in Iraq, and forming 4 way teams, and teaching people to freefly and jump wingsuits.

Then we'd see politics and sectarian violence!

t

Eish... and then all these new skydivers join Dropzone.com!!!!

[jakee 1,594]

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So I hear everyone going on and on about how wrong everything has been done. What's your grand solution? If you were President today.......how would you fix all this.

So.... you're saying its a bad thing to bash Bush if we haven't got an immediate answer on how to fix what you've just admitted he fucked up in the first place?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So I hear everyone going on and on about how wrong everything has been done. What's your grand solution? If you were President today.......how would you fix all this. Please........don't say dumb shit "Pull out of Iraq" and then not provide a timeline of the repercussions of your actions. Since obviously.......something like that would have a rather large effect on the world. Have at it. I am really am interested in what you have to say. Well........except for one person that is mentally unstable.

How about you start with fully admitting that Bush and his administration royally fucked up by invading Iraq and with almost anything following that.

You have to admit there isa problem before we can start talking about how we can fix it....

[wmw999 2,584]

I pretty much agree with Tonto, we really shouldn't have been there in the first place. Now we've broken it, and maybe we've bought it.

If we were to simply leave there would be a bloodbath for awhile. No doubt. But we're proving on a daily basis that staying is also producing a bloodbath.

If we were to request or sponsor a convocation of the Gulf countries, and then agree to provide up to (e.g.) 10,000 soldiers to help keep peace in whatever place and manner they decided for 1 year, maybe. But calling what we're doing now progress is not very realistic. It's progress as compared with yesterday, sometimes. But sometimes not, and it's definitely not progress as compared with 5 years ago. Saddam Hussein was an asshole. His sons were worse. He was their asshole; Chavez is Venezuela's asshole.

I don't have an answer for being in freefall with a rusted ripcord in a pin-and-cones rig. There isn't a good answer. But if we stop trying to be the big dog on the block it might be a help.

We're 8,000 miles away from the Gulf. Leaving, or much of anything else, is not going to cause a bloodbath in the US.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jpjc2000 0]

As usual, just more bashing without answering the question. Not being fond of Bush or his decisions myself, it would be interesting to see legit answers to the orginal question instead of the twisting and turning of words that seems the norm here.

[Tonto 1]

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If we were to simply leave there would be a bloodbath for awhile.

I think we need to define "Bloodbath."

The US has lost some 3000 people in the last 3.5 years in Iraq.

In Johannesburg/Pretoria, in the same period, 18000 people have been murdered.

Just a little perspective.

Of course, it must really, really suck being an Iraqi civilian. Their death toll is somewhat higher, but then in that is true for civilians in most armed conflicts.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[wmw999 2,584]

I wasn't thinking of the Americans when I said bloodbath. If Americans were to leave, there wouldn't be a whole lot more dead Americans. But there would be some dead Iraqis. But it would be shorter than what's been happening.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gawain 0]

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We're 8,000 miles away from the Gulf. Leaving, or much of anything else, is not going to cause a bloodbath in the US.

Not "doing anything" or "not being there" did cause a bloodbath. With exception to the WTC I, and 9/11 attacks, the other four major attacks on the US since 1992 happened 8,000 miles away from the mainland -- technically on US soil (the embassies and USS Cole) plus the servicemen at the Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. I'll throw in a reminder of a failed attempt to assassinate a former President and our first "direct" contact in Somalia (supposedly).

Edit to add: In the context of civilian deaths, in the decade prior to the Gulf War, you've got gassed Kurds, and the Iran/Iraq war (leaving millions dead in total).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[steveorino 7]

One more lesson from Viet Nam.

Like Viet Nam, there are no easy answers and they is plenty of blame and finger pointing to go around. When the realization finally came that Viet Nam was not going to end (like the Iraqis, the Vietnamese have been fighting for centuries) the US pulled out and let them have at it. Thirty years later it still looks like it was the right thing to do for American interest.

So, I say, pull out. Put the troops in Afghanistan, get Bin Laden, then send everyone home. Hopefully then we can learn from mistakes made in places like Korea, Viet Nam, and now Iraq.

BTW. my son-in-law is over there now (third time) and I truly support you guys, but that is my opinion.

steveOrino

[idrankwhat 0]

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So I hear everyone going on and on about how wrong everything has been done. What's your grand solution? If you were President today.......how would you fix all this. Please........don't say dumb shit "Pull out of Iraq" and then not provide a timeline of the repercussions of your actions. Since obviously.......something like that would have a rather large effect on the world. Have at it. I am really am interested in what you have to say. Well........except for one person that is mentally unstable.

You rang?

Ok, first of all I'd very publically fire the executives who got us into this mess and say "sorry world, temporary insanity. He means well but he's a bit unstable." Then I'd publically drop the reality hammer on Israel. "Hey, Olmert....pull back, let your administrative hostages go and host a meeting with the PA to hammer this out otherwise we're cutting off every dime that we send you. Don't worry about security, we're sending in an overwhelming multinational peacekeeping force who will shoot anybody who shoots at anybody." Then I'd very publically state to the world that we're going to have a special election (that looks nothing like an Ohio election) in Iraq regarding US troop withdrawl. If they want us to leave then we leave.
Sorry but I don't have a good answer to the timeline question yet. The main thing that I wanted to post was that I'd fire the people responsible. There has to be some accountability somewhere! I mean these folks are business execs right? What's the first thing shareholders should do when your execs drive a business into bankruptcy whilst packing up their own golden parachutes? I say we undo the chest straps and push them out the door.

[wmw999 2,584]

You're right about Israel being the huge festering sore in the peace of the middle east. Not that it doesn't deserve to exist, or that its people are not deserving of a peaceful place to live or to defend itself.

Just that, well, it's pretty much a focal point of a lot of (whipped-up sometimes) rage. Of course, maybe by our being there we'll take some of the pressure off Israel

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[shropshire 0]

"I'd like to teach the world to sing...."


But honestly sir, what would you like us to say.. You cann't uninvade a country. You're never going to get the whole population behind you. The powers that be have pissed off way too many people (by killing their kids, family, friends etc..) to ever put them in the mood to forgive, let alone forget.

Essentially, we're shit out of luck and loosing fiends fast.

The answer is.... there is no answer.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

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I wasn't thinking of the Americans when I said bloodbath. If Americans were to leave, there wouldn't be a whole lot more dead Americans.

Hey missy .. lets get with the program here.. If we are not fighting them over there we will be fighting them in the streets of Houston...then you will have lots of dead americans.

[JohnnyD 0]

If only I could be King for a day:

1.) Immediately reduce our forces in Iraq to holding one small safe area (along the lines of Bill's idea, but smaller). We will keep the safe area for six months, then we will be completely gone.
2.) Tell our troops to rest up, because they are going to Afghanistan/Pakistan to get OBL or his corpse.
3.) The administration must be held accountable. Rumsfeld is fired. Rice is fired. Gonzales is fired. Cheney and staff steps down. No one is infallible, but you don't get to call a "do-over" or an "oops, my bad" on a decision that directly caused the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of Iraqis, billions of dollars lost and turning your back on the catching the the true bad guy. There is policy and politics and very few people are completely on one side of the fence, but where ever your political affiliations may lie, this big of a fuck up can not be overlooked or swept under the rug with a "but he was a bad guy".
4.) Every person in every military prison is going on trial - today. If we don't have enough evidence to hold you, we'll throw you out a plane over whatever country you came from. If we try you and you're not guilty, you're out the plane. If your're guilty, you get a phone call and a bullet.
5.) Rested troops storm through Afghanistan/Pakistan and get OBL and anyone supporting him.
6.) Everyone goes home and we begin the work of diplomatically repairing all the damage we've already done.

[Amazon 7]

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The administration must be held accountable. Rumsfeld is fired. Rice is fired. Gonzales is fired. Cheney and staff steps down. No one is infallible, but you don't get to call a "do-over" or an "oops, my bad" on a decision that directly caused the deaths of thousands of Americans, tens of thousands of Iraqis, billions of dollars lost and turning your back on the catching the the true bad guy. There is policy and politics and very few people are completely on one side of the fence, but where ever your political affiliations may lie, this big of a fuck up can not be overlooked or swept under the rug with a "but he was a bad guy".

You ever heard the term screw up and move up???

In that cesspool all the biggest turds have already risen to the top.

This is incompetence taken to the highest level our country has ever seen.

[idrankwhat 0]

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You're right about Israel being the huge festering sore in the peace of the middle east. Not that it doesn't deserve to exist, or that its people are not deserving of a peaceful place to live or to defend itself.

Just that, well, it's pretty much a focal point of a lot of (whipped-up sometimes) rage. Of course, maybe by our being there we'll take some of the pressure off Israel

Wendy W.

We used to at least pretend that we were interested in making peace over there. 43 stepped into office and said "yea, peace is a great idea but you have to do it Israel's way and we're backing them regardless of what they do." I think it would go a loooooong way towards world peace if we were to get tough with Israel. We could start by making their soldiers, and cabinet members for that matter, walk into Lebanon to pick up the thousands of cluster bomblets that they lobbed in the last few days of the recent conflict. (Crap, that's a thread hijacking comment isn't it? My bad).

[juanesky 0]

No, it's not hijacking, that would be trolling my friend.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon