Death toll - Is it worth it?

[Enrique 0]

Quote

What we know for sure is that OBL's focus to attack the US stemmed from Saudi Arabia allowing US and coalition troops to stage the liberation of Kuwait from there in the first place.

Why did it escalate to what we have now?

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Your criteria, above, for judging the validity of the war is ridiculous.

Simple questions for you: Have the war efforts been efficient? Have they been effective?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

What we know for sure is that OBL's focus to attack the US stemmed from Saudi Arabia allowing US and coalition troops to stage the liberation of Kuwait from there in the first place.

Why did it escalate to what we have now?

I don't view in the way your question frames it. I was simply responding to a post SpeedRacer made.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

What we know for sure is that OBL's focus to attack the US stemmed from Saudi Arabia allowing US and coalition troops to stage the liberation of Kuwait from there in the first place.

Why did it escalate to what we have now?

I don't view in the way your question frames it. I was simply responding to a post SpeedRacer made.

If the origin of the current US/IRAQ conflict stemmed from Saudi Arabia allowing US and coalition troops to stage the liberation of Kuwait, what do you think made OBL's rage grow to the point of attempting ongoing attacks not only against the US, but against the entire coalition forces.

[Royd 0]

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Where would this world be if people with your mentality were in charge during WW2?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Where would this world be if people with your mentality were in charge during WW2?

If such people had been in charge of Germany, Italy, and Japan, I would say we all would've avoided a lot of trouble.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Enrique 0]

Hayfield just wrote this in another string: "The politicians fuck things up and soldiers get stuck with the tab."

I think that quote represents what I am trying to say here.

I clearly understand that some sacrifices must be made in order to achieve a goal (such as killing OBL), but when the number of lives lost surpasses the "estimated casualty quota" by SOOOO much, and the invasion is delayed from 1 week to more than 3 years, the message the US is trying to send becomes a little bit hazy in the eyes of the spectator.

[azdiver 0]

you need to go back and check your history on when al quade declared war on the western civilizations and why. a hint look at the first time the us was in afganistan, back when he loved the usa, and sang our praises

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[juanesky 0]

Quote

Quote

Your criteria, above, for judging the validity of the war is ridiculous.

Simple questions for you: Have the war efforts been efficient? Have they been effective?

The problem with your logic is that you forget the fact that it was Saudi Arabia, that requested a coalition force in its land. OBL took upon himself the misguided role of advocate of what can be done or not in a country where he did not have any legal rights to do so. You forget he is a terrorist with a sick mind, and that coalition had the blessing of the arab league back then....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Enrique 0]

Quote

OBL took upon himself the misguided role of advocate of what can be done or not in a country where he did not have any legal rights to do so.

... and the US has the right to impose democracy in a Country other than the US???

[pirana 0]

Quote

Yes, & the main motivation for that was Osama declaring war on us, after we went into Iraq in 1991. As Clay pointed out, he had volunteered his Mujahadeen to Saudi Arabia to go & fight against Saddam. The Saudis turned him down & went with the US/UK etc. On top of that, we left over 100,000 troops stationed in Saudi Arabia (the holy land of Islam) from 1991 to 2003. THAT is why they declared war on us.

The shit that's going on today is really an extention of the 1991 gulf War. If we had stayed out of Iraq in 1991, things might be different.

And I would say that 1991 was a continuation of what happened in Iran (us putting a murderous puppet on the throne for the sake of cheap oil). It could also be linked to our support of Israel, our relations with the Saudi royal family despite their being one of the most oppressive regimes in the world, and so on and so forth. It's a tangled web that goes way back, with alliances that shift whenever it is economically convenient.

I don't think there is an easy answer, or a graceful exit, especially because of the oil. At least in Vietnam all we lost was face when we decided 50,000 lives for um, . . . uh, . . . nothing I guess? Yeah, 50,000 lives lost for nothing seemed like a bad deal. So how many is this effort worth?

When we cross into 5 figures, will it be cause to pause and rethink? 20,000? Should we go for 50,000 again? For all that oil it might be worth a million young men.

But as someone pointed out, this has now become a clash of cultures as well as a battle for oil. The damage has been done, and even if we pulled out completely and promised never again to interfere they'd probably still come gunning for us.

The mid term future (10 to 20 years?) has the potential to be pretty darn bleak.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[freethefly 6]

Quote

The shit that's going on today is really an extention of the 1991 gulf War. If we had stayed out of Iraq in 1991, things might be different.

It should also be understood that Bush1 gave Saddam the go ahead and stated that it was an Arab matter and that the U.S. would not get involved. He lied.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

OBL took upon himself the misguided role of advocate of what can be done or not in a country where he did not have any legal rights to do so.

... and the US has the right to impose democracy in a Country other than the US???

We didn't write the Iraqi constitution, they did... nice try, though!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

OBL took upon himself the misguided role of advocate of what can be done or not in a country where he did not have any legal rights to do so.

... and the US has the right to impose democracy in a Country other than the US???

We didn't write the Iraqi constitution, they did... nice try, though!

What I mean is that the US has no business enforcing the Iraqi Constitution, as the Iraqis have no business enforcing the US Constitution. The Iraqi people have proven that they can fight against a big bully (whether it being the US or Saddam), so let them fight their own battle, let them enforce their own laws and have their own fight for democracy.

Someone else pointed out that there is a shit load of violations going on in several Countries of Africa and... why doesn't the US go there?... does it see no benefit?

[billvon 3,119]

>So you see, this report is not all one-sided against President Bush,
>as you and the media are trying to present it.

John, you've got to stop thinking the world revolves around Bush. The report is not about Bush. It does not say he's evil or stupid. It's a National Intelligence Estimate; it talks about what's going on in Iraq (and elsewhere.) And it clearly says that the Iraq war is making problems worse. That's what we're discussing. It says many other things, including that changing political systems might help combat jihadism (for example.)

Again, the report is not about Bush. There's more to world affairs than whether or not someone supports Bush.

>If you want to allow the terrorists to have a safe haven, a large
>steady source of revenue to fund their plots, and a place to be
> centralized for organizing and training terror attacks . . .

. . . then invade Iraq. We did. And now there is an Al Qaeda in Iraq where there was not one before. The war supplies Al Qaeda with a steady stream of angry recruits.

>And then bend over and kiss the asses of many of your fellow
>Americans goodbye.

We already did that. 3000 americans in the 9/11 attacks, another 3000 americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. Families of US soldiers are "kissing them goodbye" every day. Most of the country would like to change that.

[mnealtx 0]

Why doesn't Mexico go there?

We keep hearing how the USA shouldn't be the world's policeman...make up your mind, will you??

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pirana 0]

Quote

Someone else pointed out that there is a shit load of violations going on in several Countries of Africa and... why doesn't the US go there?... does it see no benefit?

Easiest question of the day.

Answer is yes, they see no benefit.

The only slightly more complex answer. There is not nearly the potential windfall as doing Iraq.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Why doesn't Mexico go there?

Because our purpose in life is not to nose around in other Country's business and tell them how they should rule themselves .

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Why doesn't Mexico go there?

Because our purpose in life is not to nose around in other Country's business and tell them how they should rule themselves .

Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Enrique 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Why doesn't Mexico go there?

Because our purpose in life is not to nose around in other Country's business and tell them how they should rule themselves .

Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of...

I AM NOT SAYING THE US SHOULD! I am actually saying that the USA should butt out of Iraq and every other Country in the world they have been nosing around in: Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc.,

[christelsabine 1]

....

Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of...

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

....

Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of...

Pls help me out here: I do not find the part in one of his posts where he said the US should ...? Perhaps, a lack of understanding American English in my side

[juanesky 0]

Don't waste your time pal, they won't be able to understand it.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

....

Ah, I see...but it's fine for you to say that the USA should... as long as it's something that YOU approve of...

Pls help me out here: I do not find the part in one of his posts where he said the US should ...? Perhaps, a lack of understanding American English in my side

Quote

Someone else pointed out that there is a shit load of violations going on in several Countries of Africa and... why doesn't the US go there?... does it see no benefit?