kallend 2,182 #1 September 7, 2006 www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060907.INTERROGATION07/TPStory/TPInternational/America/ But on the other hand, the CIA can still do it with GWB's blessing... www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/c9e826e4d9838e346af33090f0583e7f.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #2 September 7, 2006 Did you listen to W? It's not torture!!!We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #3 September 7, 2006 Hey, if Jack Bauer does it -- its gotta be cool. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #4 September 7, 2006 Well, that's too bad.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #5 September 7, 2006 I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get one of those bad guys to spill the beans. Not exactly my idea of torture. He probably needed his face washed, anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #6 September 7, 2006 Quote He probably needed his face washed, anyway. That was the torture! None of those guys like water.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #7 September 7, 2006 Quotewww.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060907.INTERROGATION07/TPStory/TPInternational/America/ But on the other hand, the CIA can still do it with GWB's blessing... www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/c9e826e4d9838e346af33090f0583e7f.htm What the boy blunder fails to admit/understand is that if our enemies used the same rule book we've adopted that we'd be calling them uncivilized, criminals, animals and terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #8 September 7, 2006 >I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. I imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #9 September 7, 2006 QuoteI heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get one of those bad guys to spill the beans. It is true...only to find out that the WMD he admitted to having seen didn't exist. It's okay, only a couple of thousand people have lost their lives due to those 2 1/2 minutes of torture....but Bush got his wish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #10 September 7, 2006 Quotethat if our enemies used the same rule book we've adopted that we'd be calling them uncivilized, criminals, animals and terrorists. What rules do they play by now? I haven't noticed any. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #11 September 7, 2006 But on the other hand, the CIA can still do it with GWB's blessingQuote Glad to hear it!!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,602 #12 September 7, 2006 You get crap data from torture. The people in power care about volume, because the quality only matters long after they've gotten their reward, and the torture has happened. If torturers who got crap data were subjected to a round of whatever they did to produce the crap data, it might be a fair fight. (edit to add: that second point is just BSing, but there are some decent studies and books indicating that you get crap data from torture) Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #13 September 7, 2006 The left is taking the war on terror into the courts and away from the executive branch. That is where the bs is. As for "torture" bs. I do not dispute your getting crap from torture but, there are those that classify legit tactics of getting info as "torture". Again, that is where the bs is............"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,132 #14 September 7, 2006 >The left is taking the war on terror into the courts and away from the executive branch. And to the legislature, where it belongs. >there are those that classify legit tactics of getting info as "torture". Keeping someone awake for a week isn't torture. Drowning them is. Attaching electrodes to their genitals is. Hanging them from the ceiling for 24 hours is. And since we've done all those things, we're also getting the bad information that comes along with it. And bad information leads to dead americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #15 September 7, 2006 QuoteAttaching electrodes to their genitals is. Gotta call bullshit on that one. It's ONLY toture if you then put current through the electrodes. If you never plug them in it doesn't qualify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #16 September 7, 2006 And bad information leads to dead americans.Quote As has the left and the tail wagging media........."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,602 #17 September 7, 2006 How? Just by disagreeing? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #18 September 7, 2006 No, How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even they admit work very well as in tracking the money. How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier tactics of communication. How about playing up Wilson Plame bull shit. (this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one) and the list goes on and on....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,602 #19 September 7, 2006 I'm confused as to how those cost lives. Especially since, well, no American lives have been lost other than in Iraq and Afghanistan recently, and I kind of doubt that those monitoring programs (which were about US monitoring) were impacting combat operations in the Middle East. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,132 #20 September 7, 2006 >How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even >they admit work very well as in tracking the money. "Work well" doesn't really matter. Japanese internment camps worked well at keeping japanese off our streets; does that mean that anyone who spoke out against them was on Japan's side in WWII? >How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting >the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier >tactics of communication. Secrecy can work in non-democratic forms of government; it often doesn't work in a republic. Monitoring programs that do (on occasion) monitor calls between US citizens falls well within things citizens _must_ know, so they can vote for their next leaders from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance. >this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one Now it's criminal if people DON'T reveal things they consider secret? Make up your mind, man! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #21 September 7, 2006 Twist the point of view if you choose to. Doesn't change the facts......."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #22 September 8, 2006 >I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #23 September 8, 2006 Quote>I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? True. And cutting your head off with a saw is quite different than getting beaten to death over a couple of days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #24 September 8, 2006 QuoteKeeping someone awake for a week isn't torture. Drowning them is. Attaching electrodes to their genitals is. Hanging them from the ceiling for 24 hours is. And since we've done all those things, we're also getting the bad information that comes along with it. And bad information leads to dead americans. Being forced to listen to eminin 24/7 would definately be considered torture, but the guards were obviously subjected to the same noise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,182 #25 September 8, 2006 Debating who is worse, us or them, really proves the point. We USED TO BE better than them. WHY have we descended to their level? WE should not be doing it. We should be BETTER than them - always.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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wmw999 2,602 #12 September 7, 2006 You get crap data from torture. The people in power care about volume, because the quality only matters long after they've gotten their reward, and the torture has happened. If torturers who got crap data were subjected to a round of whatever they did to produce the crap data, it might be a fair fight. (edit to add: that second point is just BSing, but there are some decent studies and books indicating that you get crap data from torture) Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #13 September 7, 2006 The left is taking the war on terror into the courts and away from the executive branch. That is where the bs is. As for "torture" bs. I do not dispute your getting crap from torture but, there are those that classify legit tactics of getting info as "torture". Again, that is where the bs is............"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #14 September 7, 2006 >The left is taking the war on terror into the courts and away from the executive branch. And to the legislature, where it belongs. >there are those that classify legit tactics of getting info as "torture". Keeping someone awake for a week isn't torture. Drowning them is. Attaching electrodes to their genitals is. Hanging them from the ceiling for 24 hours is. And since we've done all those things, we're also getting the bad information that comes along with it. And bad information leads to dead americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #15 September 7, 2006 QuoteAttaching electrodes to their genitals is. Gotta call bullshit on that one. It's ONLY toture if you then put current through the electrodes. If you never plug them in it doesn't qualify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #16 September 7, 2006 And bad information leads to dead americans.Quote As has the left and the tail wagging media........."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,602 #17 September 7, 2006 How? Just by disagreeing? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #18 September 7, 2006 No, How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even they admit work very well as in tracking the money. How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier tactics of communication. How about playing up Wilson Plame bull shit. (this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one) and the list goes on and on....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,602 #19 September 7, 2006 I'm confused as to how those cost lives. Especially since, well, no American lives have been lost other than in Iraq and Afghanistan recently, and I kind of doubt that those monitoring programs (which were about US monitoring) were impacting combat operations in the Middle East. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,132 #20 September 7, 2006 >How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even >they admit work very well as in tracking the money. "Work well" doesn't really matter. Japanese internment camps worked well at keeping japanese off our streets; does that mean that anyone who spoke out against them was on Japan's side in WWII? >How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting >the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier >tactics of communication. Secrecy can work in non-democratic forms of government; it often doesn't work in a republic. Monitoring programs that do (on occasion) monitor calls between US citizens falls well within things citizens _must_ know, so they can vote for their next leaders from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance. >this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one Now it's criminal if people DON'T reveal things they consider secret? Make up your mind, man! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #21 September 7, 2006 Twist the point of view if you choose to. Doesn't change the facts......."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #22 September 8, 2006 >I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #23 September 8, 2006 Quote>I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? True. And cutting your head off with a saw is quite different than getting beaten to death over a couple of days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #24 September 8, 2006 QuoteKeeping someone awake for a week isn't torture. Drowning them is. Attaching electrodes to their genitals is. Hanging them from the ceiling for 24 hours is. And since we've done all those things, we're also getting the bad information that comes along with it. And bad information leads to dead americans. Being forced to listen to eminin 24/7 would definately be considered torture, but the guards were obviously subjected to the same noise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,182 #25 September 8, 2006 Debating who is worse, us or them, really proves the point. We USED TO BE better than them. WHY have we descended to their level? WE should not be doing it. We should be BETTER than them - always.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
wmw999 2,602 #17 September 7, 2006 How? Just by disagreeing? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #18 September 7, 2006 No, How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even they admit work very well as in tracking the money. How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier tactics of communication. How about playing up Wilson Plame bull shit. (this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one) and the list goes on and on....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,602 #19 September 7, 2006 I'm confused as to how those cost lives. Especially since, well, no American lives have been lost other than in Iraq and Afghanistan recently, and I kind of doubt that those monitoring programs (which were about US monitoring) were impacting combat operations in the Middle East. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #20 September 7, 2006 >How about by being complicit in exposing programs that even >they admit work very well as in tracking the money. "Work well" doesn't really matter. Japanese internment camps worked well at keeping japanese off our streets; does that mean that anyone who spoke out against them was on Japan's side in WWII? >How about by exposing a legal monitoring programs and letting >the enemy know what we are doing so they can change thier >tactics of communication. Secrecy can work in non-democratic forms of government; it often doesn't work in a republic. Monitoring programs that do (on occasion) monitor calls between US citizens falls well within things citizens _must_ know, so they can vote for their next leaders from a position of knowledge rather than ignorance. >this one is criminal if Fitzgerald did know the leaker day one Now it's criminal if people DON'T reveal things they consider secret? Make up your mind, man! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #21 September 7, 2006 Twist the point of view if you choose to. Doesn't change the facts......."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #22 September 8, 2006 >I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #23 September 8, 2006 Quote>I heard that it only took 2 1/2 min. of supposed torture to get >one of those bad guys to spill the beans. QuoteI imagine you will be doing a quick 180 the next time a US serviceman is tortured in a hurry on camera.I believe there's a huge difference between thinking you're going to die , and actually having your head cut off with a saw. No? True. And cutting your head off with a saw is quite different than getting beaten to death over a couple of days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #24 September 8, 2006 QuoteKeeping someone awake for a week isn't torture. Drowning them is. Attaching electrodes to their genitals is. Hanging them from the ceiling for 24 hours is. And since we've done all those things, we're also getting the bad information that comes along with it. And bad information leads to dead americans. Being forced to listen to eminin 24/7 would definately be considered torture, but the guards were obviously subjected to the same noise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #25 September 8, 2006 Debating who is worse, us or them, really proves the point. We USED TO BE better than them. WHY have we descended to their level? WE should not be doing it. We should be BETTER than them - always.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
