jshatzkin 0 #176 September 8, 2006 Also to note an abstract concerning withdrawal of MJ: "Addiction Volume 94 Page 1311 - September 1999 doi:10.1046/j.1360-0443.1999.94913114.x Volume 94 Issue 9 Marijuana withdrawal among adults seeking treatment for marijuana dependence Alan J. Budney, Pamela L. Novy, John R. Hughes Aims. The clinical relevance of marijuana withdrawal has not been established. This study is the first to document the incidence and severity of perceived marijuana withdrawal symptoms in a clinical sample of marijuana-dependent adults. Measurements. Fifty-four people seeking outpatient treatment for marijuana dependence completed a 22-item Marijuana Withdrawal Symptom checklist based on their most recent period of marijuana abstinence. Findings. The majority (57%) indicated that they had experienced six symptoms of at least moderate severity and 47% experienced four symptoms rated as severe. Withdrawal severity was greater in those with psychiatric symptomatology and more frequent marijuana use. Conclusions. This study provides further support for a cluster of withdrawal symptoms experienced following cessation of regular marijuana use. The affective and behavioral symptoms reported were consistent with those observed in previous laboratory and interview studies. Since withdrawal symptoms are frequently a target for clinical intervention with other substances of abuse, this may also be appropriate for marijuana."Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #177 September 8, 2006 Another interesting study concerning dependence and withdrawal of marijuana: ClickyJen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #178 September 8, 2006 Quoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #179 September 8, 2006 I agree that you can probably stretch what occurs with marijuana use to fit the guidelines if you try, and I agree that there's some *possibility* of what you're talking about occurring. But trying to make a clinical picture fit into a diagnostic category by using "what ifs" and then more "what ifs" based on your accepting the first one as fact, then you're increasing the likelihood of making an inaccurate diagnosis.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #180 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #181 September 8, 2006 I don't disagree with that at all. What I DO disagree with quite strongly was your blatant statement: QuoteGiven that there's no physical addiction to and no physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana to which you have not responded back to or provided any evidence to fit your belief. I have posted much evidence to the contrary, you have only posted your opinion. Again, if I am wrong, please reference me some evidence.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #182 September 8, 2006 Addictive or not, withdrawal or not, it is STILL no business of the government what an adult chooses to put into his/her own body. When was the government given permission to be everyone's nanny?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #183 September 8, 2006 Quote Addictive or not, withdrawal or not, it is STILL no business of the government what an adult chooses to put into his/her own body. When was the government given permission to be everyone's nanny? Don't you get tired of being such a broken record? The Government DOES have the right to step in when what you put into your body affects in an adverse way the lives of other people. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #184 September 8, 2006 If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I have already adressed the legal aspect! I never said it should be illegal. I was simply dispelling people's arguments that it is harmless. The whole addiction/withdrawal argument has to do with disagreement about the harmful effects, not the legality of it. Please read all my posts before making a general comment like that!Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #185 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #186 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco. You tend to make very sweeping -and very wrong-generalizations about my character. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #187 September 8, 2006 QuoteI don't disagree with that at all. What I DO disagree with quite strongly was your blatant statement: QuoteGiven that there's no physical addiction to and no physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana to which you have not responded back to or provided any evidence to fit your belief. I have posted much evidence to the contrary, you have only posted your opinion. Again, if I am wrong, please reference me some evidence. There is no physical addiction ot MJ. There is no physical withdrawal to MJ. Is it harmless? No, it can be the center of many problems. On the relative scale of psychoactive drugs, however, it's a real lightweight.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #188 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco. You tend to make very sweeping -and very wrong-generalizations about my character. I made no comments about your character. Perhaps you shade it that way, but that's pretty much how it is with addictive personalities.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #189 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco. You tend to make very sweeping -and very wrong-generalizations about my character. I made no comments about your character. Perhaps you shade it that way, but that's pretty much how it is with addictive personalities. That statement is positively laughable. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #190 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco. You tend to make very sweeping -and very wrong-generalizations about my character. I made no comments about your character. Perhaps you shade it that way, but that's pretty much how it is with addictive personalities. That statement is positively laughable. "Most addictive personalities are in complete denial of their emotional addictions and yet their denial, in this respect, is sincere. That's because the clever operations of their defenses hide their attachments from their awareness." --Secret Attachments.Exposing the Roots of Addictions and Compulsions by Peter Michaelson It ain't just a river in Africa.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #191 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteone point... you don't have to have an addictive personality to become addicted to drugs. likewise, just b/c you have an addictive personality doesn't ipso facto mean you'll become addicted to drugs. True. Some turn their addiction to religion. You are just so sweet! How I taste has nothing to do with this. Our perceptions do. No matter what you tune your addictive personality to, it alters your ability to perceive what is actually going on around you. At one time for you it was substances, now it's religion. You easily see the problem with the former and seem to have trouble seeing the latter. It's kind of like listening to ex-smokers opinions about tobacco. You tend to make very sweeping -and very wrong-generalizations about my character. I made no comments about your character. Perhaps you shade it that way, but that's pretty much how it is with addictive personalities. That statement is positively laughable. It ain't just a river in Africa. Again w/ the assumptions... have a nice day, sweetheart. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #192 September 8, 2006 QuoteThere is no physical addiction ot MJ. There is no physical withdrawal to MJ. Again, you are posting opinion only. Please scroll to 3 separate posts where I have supplied peer reviewed empirically based evidence showing studies proving addiction and withdrawal existence of MJ. Read the studies, and if you can find one countering it, I will be interested to read it. I think it's fascinating how some can make such general overt statements, which are nothing more than personal opinion not backed by data or research! (at least you have posted nothing but your opinion). Please, you or Lindsey show me some evidence, not just your opinion, about addiction and withdrawal of marijuana supporting your claim.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #193 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteThere is no physical addiction ot MJ. There is no physical withdrawal to MJ. Again, you are posting opinion only. Please scroll to 3 separate posts where I have supplied peer reviewed empirically based evidence showing studies proving addiction and withdrawal existence of MJ. Read the studies, and if you can find one countering it, I will be interested to read it. I think it's fascinating how some can make such general overt statements, which are nothing more than personal opinion not backed by data or research! (at least you have posted nothing but your opinion). Please, you or Lindsey show me some evidence, not just your opinion, about addiction and withdrawal of marijuana supporting your claim. In recent years, you won't find much of anything published in drug research that does not conclude something harmful. Research literature over the decades, however, is replete with consistent scientific findings contrary to your cited ones. Sorry, it's a too old (and pretty much settled) argument to do the research for you.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #194 September 8, 2006 That's a cop out reply if I ever heard one Another fallacy in this argument; to simply discount evidence presented without supplying your own, hoping that will make your argument somehow valid??? There is usually evidence supporting any side of research. Perhaps you would be more convincing to simply state that there is conflicting evidence (though you have shown none) rather than to make your own blanket conclusion Quoteno addiction or withdrawal based on absolutely nothing. The SC mystifies me with all these opinions that some cannot or will not back up with facts! Most recent research uses technology to conduct these studies in a more valid way that could not be used when previous studies Quotereplete with consistent scientific findings contrary to your cited ones were conducted. Do some history search, find out how those studies were conducted compared to "recent" studies and it makes sense why we are finding more harmful effects than previously noted. Just as in any science, as our technology and means increase, we are able to isolate more variables in studies that could not be isolated,..say in the 1960's. But to make such a strong statement as "no physical addiction or withdrawal" is fallacious supported by nothing.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #195 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuote Addictive or not, withdrawal or not, it is STILL no business of the government what an adult chooses to put into his/her own body. When was the government given permission to be everyone's nanny? Don't you get tired of being such a broken record? The Government DOES have the right to step in when what you put into your body affects in an adverse way the lives of other people. Just bringing the conversation back ON topic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #196 September 8, 2006 QuoteAddictive or not, withdrawal or not, it is STILL no business of the government what an adult chooses to put into his/her own body. Professor Jennings? "Jennings: Teaching is just a way to pay the bills until I finish my novel. Boon: How long you been workin' on it? Jennings: Four and a half years. Pinto: It must be very good. Jennings: It's a piece of shit. Would anyone like to smoke some pot? " http://161.58.5.90/animal/schizo.wav"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #197 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteI didn't say beating their kids. I said NEGLECTING their kids, and I used that term specifically, b/c parents who are stoned out of their mind CANNOT and DO NOT care for their children properly. I don't see how anyone can argue that point. But parents can, say, go to a party, smoke a bowl, and later still be excellent parents. It's about using judgment. linz I can argue that point quite well, thanks. B/c during the 6 years I was a therapist I saw it day in and day out. Parents baked, kids living in squalor. True, parents who OCCASIONALLY smoke a bowl can LATER still be excellent parents. The key word in your post was LATER. it's DURING the high that is the problem. Simple solution - don't get "baked." Same difference as someone having a glass of wine or two in the evening versus drinking a bottle of Jack every night. Should we make it all illegal so that people do not have to exercise discipline and moderation in their behavior. Fast boats get used to break laws; should they all be outlawed? Some people who have and use pot do stupid stuff. Some people who have and use guns do stupid stuff. Both should be completely illegal? Which wouldn't matter to some of those people, since they wil find other stupid stuff to do without pot or guns." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #198 September 8, 2006 Interesting piece (by Mr. Buckley). Very well said." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #199 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI didn't say beating their kids. I said NEGLECTING their kids, and I used that term specifically, b/c parents who are stoned out of their mind CANNOT and DO NOT care for their children properly. I don't see how anyone can argue that point. But parents can, say, go to a party, smoke a bowl, and later still be excellent parents. It's about using judgment. linz I can argue that point quite well, thanks. B/c during the 6 years I was a therapist I saw it day in and day out. Parents baked, kids living in squalor. True, parents who OCCASIONALLY smoke a bowl can LATER still be excellent parents. The key word in your post was LATER. it's DURING the high that is the problem. Simple solution - don't get "baked." Same difference as someone having a glass of wine or two in the evening versus drinking a bottle of Jack every night. Should we make it all illegal so that people do not have to exercise discipline and moderation in their behavior. Fast boats get used to break laws; should they all be outlawed? Some people who have and use pot do stupid stuff. Some people who have and use guns do stupid stuff. Both should be completely illegal? Which wouldn't matter to some of those people, since they wil find other stupid stuff to do without pot or guns. I like your post and that brings me back to my original post about how I have historically been on the fence about this issue. Some people DO smoke a little and don't get completely baked, just a little happy, and only use it sparingly and in complete moderation. I just wonder how "typical" that use is. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #200 September 8, 2006 QuoteMany different views are still open on the *withdrawal* of marijuana. From (I quote this book again) "Drugs, Society and Human Behavior" 9th Ed. Charles Ksir and Oakley Ray: "Physical dependence {with marijuana} has been demonstrated in laboratory experiments with humans given large doses of THC every 4 hours for 10 to 20 days. Beginning several hours after the last dose subjects have shown irritability, restlessness, nausea, and vomiting. These symptoms peak at 8 hours and declined over the next three days. Sleep disturbances and loss of appetite have also been reported. Such withdrawal symptoms are virtually never reported outside the research laboratory. One reason might be that the drug is so long lasting. Withdrawal signs are more dramatic when a when a drug leaves the body quickly. The development of a specific antagonist for the marijuana (or anandamide) receptor has made it possible to demonstrate clear withdrawal symptoms in laboratory animals, because administration of an antagonist has the effect of removing the drug from the receptors almost instantaneously. In [these} animal studies, the withdrawal symptoms resemble those of opiate withdrawal to some extent and may have some mechanisms in common" QuoteGiven that there's no physical addiction to and no physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana, this is a huge stretch Really? Maybe it is that the withdrawal symptoms are spread out, so it is not as overtly observable. So, yes, over time the person can experience withdrawal, and according to the DSM, still meet criteria for the diagnosis in argument, 30 days after withdrawal has ended. This is also probably why they give a 28 day window for withdrawal because of how long it can take to slowly withdrawal from the drug. If I am wrong, please show me evidence supporting your claim there is NO withdrawal symptoms. And studies have shown that squirrels forced to inhale the smoke of an ounce of marijuana each day for 3 straight months tend to lose their sense of self-preservation and play with their nuts instead of storing them. I have waited so long to use that. Thank you stayhigh. x" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
