From American Conservative Magazine: maybe war isn't the answer.

[kallend 2,182]

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A little Monday morning quarterbacking: We should have pulled all of the troops out of Bosnia, or anywhere else where we are playing army, and completely put a noose around Iraq.
Then set up temporary refugee camps outside of every town.

Give everyone a certain period of time to enter the camp with no weapons. After that, everyone else is considered an enemy.

Right - the classic way to liberate a people from the yoke of a dictator, and win them over to the ways of democracy and freedom.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,602]

What if that's not what they want? What if, when asked "what would you want," more Iraqis said "control of our own future" rather than "control of its own destiny without terror/Islamic Fascitist leaders that will continue to polute the minds of thier young to strap bombs on themselves and thier children to support a barbaric leadership?" (i.e. the control itself is the most important).

In Vietnam, there were a lot of Vietnamese who wanted the Americans to stay. A lot of those came to the US. But, based on the fact that a lot stayed, and have made lives, it seems that more just wanted to get back to living a daily life.

The people who came to the US by and large wish we had "won" (at least all but one of the family that we sponsored feels that way), and that the worst possible result happened. But based on the fact that the country is internally peaceful now, and families are reunited, maybe an enforced pax Americana wasn't the only solution. It might have been the one that we wanted, but sometimes the result we want might not really be the one that benefits the most people, including us.

I really don't see the current war as making a lot of things better. Yes, it might be getting better than it was a few months ago, but are most Iraqis happier and safer now than they were 4 years ago?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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What if that's not what they want? What if, when asked "what would you want," more Iraqis said "control of our own future" rather than "control of its own destiny without terror/Islamic Fascitist leaders that will continue to polute the minds of thier young to strap bombs on themselves and thier children to support a barbaric leadership?" (i.e. the control itself is the most important).

In Vietnam, there were a lot of Vietnamese who wanted the Americans to stay. A lot of those came to the US. But, based on the fact that a lot stayed, and have made lives, it seems that more just wanted to get back to living a daily life.

The people who came to the US by and large wish we had "won" (at least all but one of the family that we sponsored feels that way), and that the worst possible result happened. But based on the fact that the country is internally peaceful now, and families are reunited, maybe an enforced pax Americana wasn't the only solution. It might have been the one that we wanted, but sometimes the result we want might not really be the one that benefits the most people, including us.

I really don't see the current war as making a lot of things better. Yes, it might be getting better than it was a few months ago, but are most Iraqis happier and safer now than they were 4 years ago?

Wendy W.

What choice do we have?
If we do nothing they will keep trying to kill us!
I don't buy the "we have created more terrorist" mantra. They have been trying to hit us since the early 1990's. Do we pull back and wait for the next attack? If/when that attack comes what do we do then. (oh, and Iraq was part of the 911 attack despite those trying to convince us otherwise)

People, all people want to be free. Given a chance I believe they will choose that path. When they have stablized thier country we will leave if they ask us to.

What would you have us do?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,182]

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The current solution is working Bill
Choosing to ignore this will not change things.

Terrorist attacks in Iraq when Paul Bremmer took over as civilian administrator in Iraq - 16 per day on average.

Terrorist attacks in Iraq, July 2006 - 90 per day average.

Yup, the Bush solution is working fine.

Sticking YOUR head in the sand will not change things.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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What choice do we have?
If we do nothing they will keep trying to kill us!

It wasn't the Iraqis trying to kill you. It was mostly Saudis with training backed by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[rushmc 23]

and your head is where the sun..........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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What choice do we have?
If we do nothing they will keep trying to kill us!

It wasn't the Iraqis trying to kill you. It was mostly Saudis with training backed by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

And SH was supplying them with training grounds and money.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,182]

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What choice do we have?
If we do nothing they will keep trying to kill us!

It wasn't the Iraqis trying to kill you. It was mostly Saudis with training backed by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Careful, you'll get a quote from NewsMax about how Iraq really did have WMDs and drones that could hit the US within 45 minutes and a uranium enrichment plant and an active bioweapons program.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And SH was supplying them with training grounds and money.

He was hardly alone in that. There were three training camps in Ontario, Canada. Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Still doesn't explain why the US has really turned the far majority of their effort on Iraq and almost completely abandoned (in comparison) Afghanistan, which really is much more related to it all.

[rushmc 23]

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And SH was supplying them with training grounds and money.

He was hardly alone in that. There were three training camps in Ontario, Canada. Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Still doesn't explain why the US has really turned the far majority of their effort on Iraq and almost completely abandoned (in comparison) Afghanistan, which really is much more related to it all.

I believe the bigger picture is Iran. Iraq is a part of that equation

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GTAVercetti 0]

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And SH was supplying them with training grounds and money.

He was hardly alone in that. There were three training camps in Ontario, Canada. Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Still doesn't explain why the US has really turned the far majority of their effort on Iraq and almost completely abandoned (in comparison) Afghanistan, which really is much more related to it all.

I believe the bigger picture is Iran. Iraq is a part of that equation

So now we invaded Iraq to get to Iran?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[wmw999 2,602]

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Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Oh yeah? That's what we want you to think

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Oh yeah? That's what we want you to think

Wendy W.

Geez Wendy. Why don't you just TELL them our plans?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

It's okay, we know the UN will tell us about US troop movements well before we could possibly know about it....

[steveorino 7]

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Good summary at the end of the article: "We . .need to be smart, and getting smart means ending our infatuation with war and rediscovering the possibilities of politics." I hope enough people start realizing this before we lose thousands more US troops to a war we can't win.

At times it is rare, but I wholeheartedly agree with you, Bill. I may not have seen it before we invaded, but I saw Iraq turning into a quagmire like Viet Nam a few weeks after we "liberated" Baghdad. Too many flashbacks from the 60s!

steveOrino

[jakee 1,610]

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A little Monday morning quarterbacking: We should have pulled all of the troops out of Bosnia, or anywhere else where we are playing army, and completely put a noose around Iraq.
Then set up temporary refugee camps outside of every town.

Give everyone a certain period of time to enter the camp with no weapons. After that, everyone else is considered an enemy.

How would you feed these people?

How would you supply sufficient water?

How would you supply electricity?

Are you insane?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,132]

You said you like specifics, so I'll give you some here:

>Then end is an Iraq in control of its own destiny without
> terror/Islamic Fascitist leaders that will continue to polute the minds
> of thier young to strap bombs on themselves and thier children to
> support a barbaric leadership.

That can't be it. They had that under Saddam Hussein, who was a secular, anti-Islamic leader. Since then the country has drifted closer to Islamic leadership, and religious-extremist leaders are taking power in many areas. So that's failed.

>The only way to have that happen is have a people experienced
> enough living freedom to fight for it and to vote in leaders
> supporting this freedom.

The US is now considering options other than democracy. So that's failing as well.

>The current trends in Iraq show less and less violence toward our troops.

Completely wrong. IED attacks against _everyone_ are up significantly. We are getting better at avoiding them, and are getting better at putting broken soldiers back together again. Which is great, but doesn't mean there are fewer attacks against us. From an administration official last week:

"The insurgency has gotten worse by almost all measures, with insurgent attacks at historically high levels. The insurgency has more public support and is demonstrably more capable in numbers of people active and in its ability to direct violence than at any point in time."

From the same article:

Along with a sharp increase in sectarian attacks, the number of daily strikes against American and Iraqi security forces has doubled since January 2006.

>The generals over there do not think the civil war will happen either as reported last week.

From the general leading US forces in Iraq:

"I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war. . ."

Since he said that it hasn't stopped; it's gotten worse. We've all heard the propaganda. "We're turning the corner." "The insurgency is in its last throes." "Attacks are down." "Mission accomplished." You can lie to people only so many times before they figure out what's going on.

>I fully believe that the hate retoric by the left (which has
>happened every time when they loose the presidency) has caused
>many a soldiers death.

And I think that the right wing's belief that soldiers should be used as bullet sponges, instead of used to defend the United States of America from its enemies, has resulted in a great many dead soldiers. The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. We need a better one.

>but, skewing facts to gain political power is a despicable tactic that is
> dangerous.

I agree. Claiming that the situation in Iraq is getting better is not only misleading, it will result in bad decisions being made - and those bad decisions translate directly into dead soldiers. Like the article says, we have to get smarter.

[billvon 3,132]

>and your head is where the sun........

Your one warning. Debate the subject; don't attack the person.

[mnealtx 0]

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Don't see you invading us any time soon.

Oh yeah? That's what we want you to think

Wendy W.

Geez Wendy. Why don't you just TELL them our plans?

Why not...isn't that the function of the NYT, anyway?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,182]

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>and your head is where the sun........

Your one warning. Debate the subject; don't attack the person.

How can he debate the subject? - It was a simple factual statement about the number of daily attacks in Iraq now compared with when Bremmer was there. There's no debating that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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You said you like specifics, so I'll give you some here:

>Then end is an Iraq in control of its own destiny without
> terror/Islamic Fascitist leaders that will continue to polute the minds
> of thier young to strap bombs on themselves and thier children to
> support a barbaric leadership.

That can't be it. They had that under Saddam Hussein, who was a secular, anti-Islamic leader. Since then the country has drifted closer to Islamic leadership, and religious-extremist leaders are taking power in many areas. So that's failed.

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Not true.
One group, one religion was supported. All others were crushed and persacuted. Your veiw of freedom?

>The only way to have that happen is have a people experienced
> enough living freedom to fight for it and to vote in leaders
> supporting this freedom.

The US is now considering options other than democracy. So that's failing as well.

Demoocracy? Your words here not mine. Freedom is what I am saying.

>The current trends in Iraq show less and less violence toward our troops.

Completely wrong. IED attacks against _everyone_ are up significantly. We are getting better at avoiding them, and are getting better at putting broken soldiers back together again. Which is great, but doesn't mean there are fewer attacks against us. From an administration official last week:

"The insurgency has gotten worse by almost all measures, with insurgent attacks at historically high levels. The insurgency has more public support and is demonstrably more capable in numbers of people active and in its ability to direct violence than at any point in time."

From the same article:

Along with a sharp increase in sectarian attacks, the number of daily strikes against American and Iraqi security forces has doubled since January 2006.

>The generals over there do not think the civil war will happen either as reported last week.

From the general leading US forces in Iraq:

"I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war. . ."

Since he said that it hasn't stopped; it's gotten worse. We've all heard the propaganda. "We're turning the corner." "The insurgency is in its last throes." "Attacks are down." "Mission accomplished." You can lie to people only so many times before they figure out what's going on.

Nice cherry picking. You know full well others, generals have stated differntly as recent as last week. Keep trying

>I fully believe that the hate retoric by the left (which has
>happened every time when they loose the presidency) has caused
>many a soldiers death.

And I think that the right wing's belief that soldiers should be used as bullet sponges, instead of used to defend the United States of America from its enemies, has resulted in a great many dead soldiers. The "stay and die" strategy isn't working. We need a better one.

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Ah, nice one, incorrect and sick but nice one.

>but, skewing facts to gain political power is a despicable tactic that is
> dangerous.

I agree. Claiming that the situation in Iraq is getting better is not only misleading, it will result in bad decisions being made - and those bad decisions translate directly into dead soldiers. Like the article says, we have to get smarter.

You and yours need to get out of the lefty blogs to get real data.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GTAVercetti 0]

And yet, you give NO real data.

Very critical of his post, yet little to back up your own.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[SpeedRacer 1]

The guy who wrote the article is not a "lefty", nor was it written in a lefty blog. It was written in American Conservative Magazine.

Speed Racer
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[rushmc 23]

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The guy who wrote the article is not a "lefty", nor was it written in a lefty blog. It was written in American Conservative Magazine.

I realize this.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The guy who wrote the article is not a "lefty", nor was it written in a lefty blog. It was written in American Conservative Magazine.

from Rushmc's prespective American Conservative Magazine is a lefty rag....