A challenge to creationists

[kallend 2,147]

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It's ok to have localized decreases in entropy.

Some places are exempt - my desk, for example.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[steveorino 7]

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He chooses to hold a belief - with 100% certainty - in something for which there is no evidence, and he chooses to not articulate the reason why, because it wouldn't be convincing to anyone other than himself.

There's a difference.

If you are speaking of me, you are misinformed.

#1) "100% certain". I wish. I have doubts and questions as most do.

#2) There is some good evidence out there if I needed it -- see my post that no one wanted to debate about crucifiction and prophecy. Its not scientific nor archelogical, but it is logical.

#3) As stated the reason I chose not to debate it is there is an element of faith in it. I have it - evidently you don't. What is there to debate? One can't prove God scientifically, and debating something such as faith is a waste of energy better spent skydiving, cartooning, reading, etc.

steveOrino

[quade 4]

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Another requirement:

Creating or facilitating order from disorder. Life is entropy in reverse. The Universe is basically entropic, except for the influence of Life.

So, I can take sugar and dissolve it in boiling water, then make crystals (clearly an ordered thing) out of disorder.

So then sugar crystals are "alive"?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Everon 0]

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see my post that no one wanted to debate about crucifiction and prophecy.

Could you post a link?

Thanks.

[steveorino 7]

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see my post that no one wanted to debate about crucifiction and prophecy.

Could you post a link?

Thanks.

You're welcome.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2374663;#2374663

steveOrino

[jshatzkin 0]

This is a common misunderstanding of evolution.

It is not "creationism vs. evolution".

All evolution/Darwinism explains is how life forms evolve over time, not how they were created orginally. You could conceivably have intelligent design as the start point, then animals evolve from some god creating them. So, to pit creationism against evolution, is like comparing apples and oranges.

If you want to compare scientific theories on how the universe, world, and animals BEGAN life, than that is something to compare to creationsim. And I am not disclosing my beliefs on this, but some would put me more toward the deist side of things. But I don't rule out the possibility of some god creating slimy amoebas and then we all evolved from that

Jen

[billvon 3,114]

>I know that my bank exists . . .

I know that churches exist.

But we're talking about your money. Where is it? If you have $10,000 in the bank, where is it physically located? Can you point to it? How much does it weigh?

>He chooses to hold a belief - with 100% certainty - in something for
>which there is no evidence, and he chooses to not articulate the
> reason why, because it wouldn't be convincing to anyone other than
> himself.

I assume you don't know how a digital cellular phone works, down the the very basic details. Yet I bet you use one. Are you choosing not to articulate the reasons why, because you couldn't convince anyone other than yourself?

[billvon 3,114]

>All evolution/Darwinism explains is how life forms evolve over time,
> not how they were created orginally. You could conceivably have
> intelligent design as the start point, then animals evolve from some
> god creating them. So, to pit creationism against evolution, is like
> comparing apples and oranges.

You've just described "theistic evolution," one of the middle grounds in the creationism/evolution debate. Many creationists reject this premise, and do not believe that evolution works at all. These are the people picketing schools to stop teaching "Darwin's unsupported theory." Some scientists reject this premise as well, claiming that there is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Volvox can reproduce asexually (by creating new volvox within itself and squirting them out) or sexually (by touching another volvox.)

I'm compelled to weigh in here against this kind of disinformation. Volvos always reproduce asexually. Have you ever even been to a Volvo plant?

An alien from Mars visits the Earth and asks his Terran host how the human species goes about reproducing itself. The Terran whispers something in the Martian's ear, and then the Martian's three eyes get wide as saucers. "No shit!!" says the little green guy, "that's how we make cars."

[kallend 2,147]

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Another requirement:

Creating or facilitating order from disorder. Life is entropy in reverse. The Universe is basically entropic, except for the influence of Life.

So, I can take sugar and dissolve it in boiling water, then make crystals (clearly an ordered thing) out of disorder.

So then sugar crystals are "alive"?

Ah, but in crystallizing the sugar the enthalpy of fusion is released to the surroundings, (delta S = (delta H)/T) and that increases the TOTAL entropy of the (system + surroundings), and all is good with the universe.

However, if you watch Superman you will realize that crystals have some very special behaviors.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Some places are exempt - my desk, for example.

And, somehow, I believe you

We are all engines of karma

[Remster 30]

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True, I guess it's a proven historical biblical fact.

That sounds familiar somehow....

Remster

[lawrocket 3]

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You're alluding to that axiom that given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen, will happen.

Sounds like one of the leading theories of the basics of the universe - quantum. It's really based on probability, if I recall correctly. I thought that quanta are all about probabilities at the atomic and subatomic level occurring infinitely. I recall it being hard to understand, though, so I may be wrong. Something like "Figure out what the probability is of you passing through a solid wall like a ghost. A in a quintillion? In quanta, it'll happen in one of the parallel universes."

Quanta is tough to prove and understand. But, it explains a lot of stuff other things don't. Consider it like "Intelligent Design" coupled with miracles that violate the laws of physics as we know them.

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creation of pockets of order.

It seems to me that order is only created by the sum total of the probabilities.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[KidWicked 0]

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>I know that my bank exists . . .

I know that churches exist.

But we're talking about your money. Where is it? If you have $10,000 in the bank, where is it physically located? Can you point to it? How much does it weigh?

>He chooses to hold a belief - with 100% certainty - in something for
>which there is no evidence, and he chooses to not articulate the
> reason why, because it wouldn't be convincing to anyone other than
> himself.

I assume you don't know how a digital cellular phone works, down the the very basic details. Yet I bet you use one. Are you choosing not to articulate the reasons why, because you couldn't convince anyone other than yourself?

What's your point?

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[kallend 2,147]

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You're alluding to that axiom that given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen, will happen.

Sounds like one of the leading theories of the basics of the universe - quantum. It's really based on probability, if I recall correctly. I thought that quanta are all about probabilities at the atomic and subatomic level occurring infinitely. I recall it being hard to understand, though, so I may be wrong. Something like "Figure out what the probability is of you passing through a solid wall like a ghost. A in a quintillion? In quanta, it'll happen in one of the parallel universes."

Quanta is tough to prove and understand. But, it explains a lot of stuff other things don't. Consider it like "Intelligent Design" coupled with miracles that violate the laws of physics as we know them.

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creation of pockets of order.

It seems to me that order is only created by the sum total of the probabilities.

Sounds like me trying to explain the finer points of corporate tax law. I suggest you stick to lawyering.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skysaintj 0]

Reply to : "I don't see anything wrong with someone believing in something they don't quite understand. "

Book of Matthew: Jesus’ Teachings—Lesson Ten. ... change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” ...

What people don't understand about the Gospel is that God gave us all a choice - FREE WILL - you can choose otherwise there would be no point living anyway if your choices were made up for you....
That's why this Creation vs Evolution thing will go on forever cause you will have the choice until the end of your days on earth , even though i believe it won't be an ultimate end....if Life was created for no purpose and all this debating was just a waste of time then so be it .i'm not missing something believing that it won't end here
God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.

If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it

[quade 4]

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What people don't understand about the Gospel is that God gave us all a choice - FREE WILL

Free will? Really?

I wanna think about that for a minute.

Believe in God and you get to have eternal life, don't believe in God and you get eternal damnation. Either way acting out of selfishness or fear.

Doesn't sound like much free will there. Sounds way more like extortion.

To -me- free will would be . . . free. I would think that a truly loving and forgiving god wouldn't judge based on faith, but on acts and not acts based on fear of retribution but out of the kindness of one's heart.

Just one of many things I simply don't understand about the way most western religions work.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mr2mk1g 10]

As Billvon has pointed out; you're not describing Creationism.

Creationists believe that God created man from dirt and woman from one of man's ribs.

Evolutionists believe that man evolved from an ape-like creature through Darwinian evolution. They believe this happened all the way back to single celled organisms and before that, simple organic molecules. Belief in evolution does not necessitate any particular belief in how those organic molecules came about.

It is true to say that many evolutionists do not believe that God any hand in any of this. But it does not follow that Evolutionists do not believe in God or in some theistic theory regarding the creation of life.

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I don't rule out the possibility of some god creating slimy amoebas and then we all evolved from that

If this is what you believe then it is possible that you are an Evolutionist... but you most certainly are not a Creationist.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Lawrocket: It seems to me that order is only created by the sum total of the probabilities.

Kallend: Sounds like me trying to explain the finer points of corporate tax law. I suggest you stick to lawyering.

Vying for Miss Congeniality again, eh, John?

[jshatzkin 0]

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Belief in evolution does not necessitate any particular belief in how those organic molecules came about.

If you read my post, that is exactly what I am saying.

To place people in the "either/or" category (either believing creationism OR evolution), is to view the argument as simple and easy to compartmentalize. My point is that it is very complex and there are many people who do believe in both ideas,..including some scientists and clergy. (Read Time magazines articles on this in one of the July issues)

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If this is what you believe then it is possible that you are an Evolutionist... but you most certainly are not a Creationist

My comments were meant in a light hearted manner, but I never claimed to be a creationist OR an evolutionist. In fact, I used the term "deist", which basically says that a god created the universe, but had no further intervention, (look it up). As Wikipedia so eloquently describes a deist belief: "It must be understood that defining the nature of God is up to the individual Deist and not a collective effort. This is because the true nature of God is beyond human comprehension at this time in our development."

Of course I believe that, just like politics, both ideas are more on a continuum with some extreme beliefs on each side and then a blending or moderation in the middle. So, it is possible to believe a god (maybe not a Christian God mind you) did create one cell organisms! "Creationist" beliefs are not solely based on Christian views. Although the term has been commonly used to describe Christian views, it still can encompass the many other religious/spiritual beliefs about the beginning of existence. This is my whole point: that this argument is very complex with a lot more than 2 sides.

Jen

[Royd 0]

The point I am making is that nothing can continue its life cycle
>unless that ability is fully formed in them from the very beginning.
>Without it everything would die off after the first generation.

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Right. But a single strand of RNA can reproduce itself, without any sex organs, reproductive organs or enzymes. And that's all you need to start the process.

I'm not even a rookie in what you are talking about, but I looked it up, and your idea that all of life could start from one single strand of RNA is called a hypothesis. In other words, wishful thinking.
Do we find this single strand of RNA laying in the driveway, or does it only exist within an existing lifeform?
Actually, all you need to start a process is a thought.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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The point I am making is that nothing can continue its life cycle
>unless that ability is fully formed in them from the very beginning.
>Without it everything would die off after the first generation.

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Right. But a single strand of RNA can reproduce itself, without any sex organs, reproductive organs or enzymes. And that's all you need to start the process.

I'm not even a rookie in what you are talking about, but I looked it up, and your idea that all of life could start from one single strand of RNA is called a hypothesis. In other words, wishful thinking.
Do we find this single strand of RNA laying in the driveway, or does it only exist within an existing lifeform?
Actually, all you need to start a process is a thought.

You really read into that didn't you? He never said all life started from one RNA strand. He simply gave RNA as a example how something can reproduce itself without sex organs.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Squeak 17]

[replyYou really read into that didn't you? He never said all life started from one RNA strand. He simply gave RNA as a example how something can reproduce itself without sex organs.

[skysaintj 0]

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[replyYou really read into that didn't you? He never said all life started from one RNA strand. He simply gave RNA as a example how something can reproduce itself without sex organs.

Like Viri (Virus) Technically still underdebate as to whether they are alive or not

[lawrocket 3]

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Sounds like me trying to explain the finer points of corporate tax law. I suggest you stick to lawyering.

If my only option was tax law, I'd leave my profession. And, as I stated, "I recall it being hard to understand, though, so I may be wrong."

It's one of my biggest things - I ain't afraid to be wrong. Jeez, I shocked another attorney on Tuesday when I told him, "About that 998 offer - I looked at your argument and took a quick look and damned if I wasn't wrong. I apologize, and I didn't mean to misdirect you. It wasn't intentional." He said, "Are you admitting you were wrong?" I replied, "Yeah. I do that a lot." To which he said with some perceivable amazement, "In 15 years, I don't think I've ever heard an attorney say that."

I know failure, John. It defined my life until about 12 years ago.

My wife is hotter than your wife.