Libertarians = Hooverism

[Lucky... 0]

Just reading up and ran accross this:

http://www.museum.siu.edu/university_museum/museum_classroom_grant/Museum_Explorers/school_pages/bourbonnais/page2.htm

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President Herbert Hoover, a Quaker, believed in private charity to relieve the suffering of the poor. This belief led him to oppose government relief programs.

Then when it didn't work, :

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However, when the number of needy and homeless people became overwhelming, Hoover realized that he had to take action. He set up the public works program, which hired workers to construct schools, build dams, and pave big highways. This program was not ambitious enough, however, to reverse the economic downturn.

So when the Libertarians decry social welfare, know that Hoover is the author of charities dealing with it and also trickle down economics. Hoover, likely the worst president in history, was the architect of thousands of deaths while businesses and their families survived.

[justinb138 0]

What's your point?

[Lucky... 0]

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What's your point?

Isn't it obvious? Libertarians claim that if we just let the charities/churches handle welfare, the whole thing would come togther. Truth is that there would be millions of people dying in the streets.

This is the Libertarian "majic wand" that wll fix everything, cut taxes, save the nation. I believ in some of the Libertarian principles, but their approach to social help is worse than even the Repubs.

[livendive 8]

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However, when the number of needy and homeless people became overwhelming, Hoover realized that he had to take action. He set up the public works program, which hired workers to construct schools, build dams, and pave big highways. This program was not ambitious enough, however, to reverse the economic downturn.

So when the Libertarians decry social welfare, think if the author of charities dealing with it and also trickle down economics. Hoover, likely the worst president in history, was the architect of thousands of deaths while businesses and their families survived.

That's quite a stretch to say that Hoover not forcing some people to save other people made him the architect of their deaths. Similarly, Clinton not passing anti-abortion legislation means he orchestrated the deaths of thousands of children?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[TheAnvil 0]

Horrid attempt at logic. Hoover's opposition to gov't social programs no more caused the economic downturn in and of itself than my boycott of the NBA since the early 90's led to the increase in popularity of NASCAR during the intervening time period.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[pirana 0]

I'm still trying to figure out the problem with letting poor people suffer. (If that is what's happening).

My family was pretty strapped. We ate, and had a home, but even little luxuries were virtually non-existent. ALL my clothes were hand-me-downs, a frozen pizza was a big deal (ordering delivery was absolutely out of the question), we ate somewhere other than home maybe twice a year (Mother's Day and Easter). I learned some very valuable things in a nurturing, but very spartan environment. I'm not for letting people starve to death, but life on the dole SHOULD be harsh enough to motivate a person to want to work hard for another way of life. Not like "I'll get out and fill out some applications tomorrow." More like "I better get off my ass and make some money so we can eat tomorrow."

As a friend of mine once said, why shouldn't we allow certain groups of people to eliminate themselves if they are bent on doing so.

Just not on me please.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[billvon 3,119]

You say:

>Horrid attempt at logic.

And then go on to claim that your individual refusal to support a sport is similar to a US president's opposition to a major economic driver in the US, in terms of economic impact?

Methinks TheAnvil just make a funny!

[rehmwa 2]

Man are you going to get bashed for posting simple common sense - based on simple human nature.

how dare you?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,119]

> I'm not for letting people starve to death, but life on the dole
> SHOULD be harsh enough to motivate a person to want to work hard
> for another way of life.

Agreed. The state has (I believe) a basic responsibility to try to keep people from starving to death. That responsibility should not extend to keeping them happy, comfortable or well-fed.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Man are you going to get bashed for posting simple common sense - based on simple human nature.

how dare you?

But I thought complete socialism can solve everyone's problems?

I am so confused.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[lawrocket 3]

I read on the same site under FDR that he helped create the Civilian Conservation Corps, where single men between the ages of 18 and 25 got jobs developing new parks, building bridges, planting trees, and helpin with flood control projects. For this work they got one whole dollar each day.

Adjusting for inflation, that works out to about 14.00 dollars per day in 2005 dollars (assuming 1935 for the $1.00 pay). Assuming only a four-hour work day, that would be present pay of $1.75 per hour.

So we see what a nice living wage is when the government has to pay it.

Now, we can also look at governmental policiesf that time and I can argue that FDR's New Deal had the effect of ensuring that the Depression lasted far longer than it would have had the economy been left alone. It's why the US economy was below 1934 levels from 1938 until 1946.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TheAnvil 0]

Bill, the Stock Market crashed within a few months of Hoover assuming the presidency. Get real, dude.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,119]

>Bill, the Stock Market crashed within a few months of Hoover
>assuming the presidency. Get real, dude.

And 9/11 happened less than a year after Bush assumed the presidency. Get realer.

[Nightingale 0]

No. Libertarians don't believe that privatizing welfare will solve all society's problems (though I think it'd be a start). Libertarians simply believe that it is not the job of the government to take from some individuals to give to others. The job of the government is ensuring the safety of its citizens from outside factors, not playing Robin Hood.

[Lucky... 0]

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However, when the number of needy and homeless people became overwhelming, Hoover realized that he had to take action. He set up the public works program, which hired workers to construct schools, build dams, and pave big highways. This program was not ambitious enough, however, to reverse the economic downturn.

So when the Libertarians decry social welfare, think if the author of charities dealing with it and also trickle down economics. Hoover, likely the worst president in history, was the architect of thousands of deaths while businesses and their families survived.

That's quite a stretch to say that Hoover not forcing some people to save other people made him the architect of their deaths. Similarly, Clinton not passing anti-abortion legislation means he orchestrated the deaths of thousands of children?

Blues,
Dave

As for forcing some to save others, you mean that an allocation of tax revenue to buy food for people literally on death's doorstep, right? It is a duty of a nation to care for its ailing if they are dying, and that was the situation. A handful back then and here today might not think so, but they are such the minority that it's immeasureable. So you think it's not Hoover's fault for not administering immediate aid.

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Similarly, Clinton not passing anti-abortion legislation means he orchestrated the deaths of thousands of children?

1st trimester fetuses aren't considered human and do not have human or Constitutional right per the law, whatever your personal values might be. As a comparison, not even on the same level whatsoever.

[Lucky... 0]

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Horrid attempt at logic. Hoover's opposition to gov't social programs no more caused the economic downturn in and of itself than my boycott of the NBA since the early 90's led to the increase in popularity of NASCAR during the intervening time period.

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Horrid attempt at logic.

Nice personal attack...and you even got away with it.

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Hoover's opposition to gov't social programs no more caused the economic downturn in and of itself than my boycott of the NBA since the early 90's led to the increase in popularity of NASCAR during the intervening time period.

HUH?

[Lucky... 0]

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I'm still trying to figure out the problem with letting poor people suffer. (If that is what's happening).

My family was pretty strapped. We ate, and had a home, but even little luxuries were virtually non-existent. ALL my clothes were hand-me-downs, a frozen pizza was a big deal (ordering delivery was absolutely out of the question), we ate somewhere other than home maybe twice a year (Mother's Day and Easter). I learned some very valuable things in a nurturing, but very spartan environment. I'm not for letting people starve to death, but life on the dole SHOULD be harsh enough to motivate a person to want to work hard for another way of life. Not like "I'll get out and fill out some applications tomorrow." More like "I better get off my ass and make some money so we can eat tomorrow."

As a friend of mine once said, why shouldn't we allow certain groups of people to eliminate themselves if they are bent on doing so.

Just not on me please.

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I'm still trying to figure out the problem with letting poor people suffer. (If that is what's happening).

Really! Next thing you know they'll be calling us humanitarians.

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I'm not for letting people starve to death, but life on the dole SHOULD be harsh enough to motivate a person to want to work hard for another way of life.

That's what we're talking about here, so why the conflict with your logic? Did I ever write that Hoover was a SOB becuase he didn't buy everyone Cadillacs? I can't understand why you contrast here, unless you don't knwo a lot about the Great Depression.

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Not like "I'll get out and fill out some applications tomorrow." More like "I better get off my ass and make some money so we can eat tomorrow."

You understand there was no unemployment, no social services anywhere - people were litterally, litterally dying in the streets. It's kind of moot for any of us to comment on that era since I don't think any of us can even fathom what it was like, just what we read.

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As a friend of mine once said, why shouldn't we allow certain groups of people to eliminate themselves if they are bent on doing so.

These weren't lazy people, these were you and me. I don't think you can fathom the gravity of the Great Depression.

[Lucky... 0]

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You say:

>Horrid attempt at logic.

And then go on to claim that your individual refusal to support a sport is similar to a US president's opposition to a major economic driver in the US, in terms of economic impact?

Methinks TheAnvil just make a funny!

Not to mention a personal attack.

[Lucky... 0]

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I read on the same site under FDR that he helped create the Civilian Conservation Corps, where single men between the ages of 18 and 25 got jobs developing new parks, building bridges, planting trees, and helpin with flood control projects. For this work they got one whole dollar each day.

Adjusting for inflation, that works out to about 14.00 dollars per day in 2005 dollars (assuming 1935 for the $1.00 pay). Assuming only a four-hour work day, that would be present pay of $1.75 per hour.

So we see what a nice living wage is when the government has to pay it.

Now, we can also look at governmental policiesf that time and I can argue that FDR's New Deal had the effect of ensuring that the Depression lasted far longer than it would have had the economy been left alone. It's why the US economy was below 1934 levels from 1938 until 1946.

We are primed for another tough time with even educated people advocating natural selection in the name of lower taxes. It's usually the advocaters that whine the loudest if/when it occurs.

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I read on the same site under FDR that he helped create the Civilian Conservation Corps, where single men between the ages of 18 and 25 got jobs developing new parks, building bridges, planting trees, and helpin with flood control projects. For this work they got one whole dollar each day.

Have you researched anywhere else? Did they get room and board too? Were there other perks?

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Now, we can also look at governmental policiesf that time and I can argue that FDR's New Deal had the effect of ensuring that the Depression lasted far longer than it would have had the economy been left alone.

Pure speculation, counselor; I object!

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It's why the US economy was below 1934 levels from 1938 until 1946.

Had zero to do with the banking crash and subsequent Great Depression. Probably the toughtest internal times in teh US, perhaos absent the Civil War, and you can criticize? HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm.

[Lucky... 0]

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Bill, the Stock Market crashed within a few months of Hoover assuming the presidency. Get real, dude.

And what did Hoover do to fix teh problem? He inherently hated social services, so that was out of the question. As you can tell bythe voters, they liked the doings of FDR/Truman, so it's an out-of-gas argument to assert that he was unpopular with his handling of the entire era including WWII.It was pure Dems from 1933 with FDR until Nixon in 68 with the exception of Eisenhower. We see what has happened since then domestically and abroad.

[Lucky... 0]

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No. Libertarians don't believe that privatizing welfare will solve all society's problems (though I think it'd be a start). Libertarians simply believe that it is not the job of the government to take from some individuals to give to others. The job of the government is ensuring the safety of its citizens from outside factors, not playing Robin Hood.

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No. Libertarians don't believe that privatizing welfare will solve all society's problems

Please post what the official take on social welfare is then. Feel free to post a citation.

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(though I think it'd be a start).

So you think if we cut all social spending, unemployment, medicare, medicaide, social security, disability, and any and all social programs and somehow privatize them we would be a better nation. [nighingale gets in a paralizing car wreck tomorrow and has a 180 degree paradigm shift fatser than Chris Reeves].

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Libertarians simply believe that it is not the job of the government to take from some individuals to give to others.

Well this is the theme of my thread, which everyone seems to ignore. Hoover thought like a Libertarian. So what is your answer to the elderly, the sick, the disabled? Do we have trucks that go around and scoop up the bodies? Then your kids see this and it ... let's say, "alters them." Actually it depraves them as the word, "humanity" takes on a whole new meaning. Libertarians mean well, they just don;t think things thru.

PROBLEM: Too much spending on social programs

SOLUTION: Cut all spending and wear blinders and respirators

AGREED, on to the next problem. It is pure avoidance to ignore social problems and they would turn into violent confrontations in many cases when people get sick / hungry enoughm so crime would be huge. It's really a ridiculous approach.

The Libertarians are considered very obscure for their take on social welfare, IMO, and might be taken more seriously if they remedied that.

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The job of the government is ensuring the safety of its citizens from outside factors, not playing Robin Hood.

As in foreign forces? It's also to ensure minimal economic stability, protect the children, care for the elderly, etc....

[livendive 8]

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It is a duty of a nation to care for its ailing if they are dying, and that was the situation.

A nation is comprised of people, therefore it is the duty of the people to care for their ailing. It doesn't take bureaucracy to fulfill that duty, the charitable paths were easily accessible. My point was that it's a cause and effect thing. Hoover didn't cause those people to die, thus he was not the "architect of thousands of deaths".

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[TheAnvil 0]

Bill - I'm not sure what analogy you're trying to make.

Lucky - you should really look at facts for what they are vice what you want them to be.

Vice do any research, you cherry picked facts and extrapolated (incorrectly) that Libertarians=Hooverism in an inane attempt to malign Libertarians.

If you'd done some research into Hoover's actions in the wake of the stock market crash of 1929, you'd know that he indeed did increase gov't spending. Gov't spending in the first half of 1930 (federal $) was more than 1929 in total. Hoover encouraged all departments of the federal gov't to speed up construction projects and contacted all state governors to encourage them to expand their state level projects as well.

A short bit of research would also have revealed to you that the man signed into law the first federal unemployment assistance program, sought a $400 million increase in the Federal Building Program, increased $ for new ship construction via the Federal Shipping Board, and increased agricultural subsidies - among other things.

If you'd take a look at the era of the great depression, you'd find that a severe drought in 1930 and the collapse of the European Banking system took a horrible recession and turned it into the Great Depression. Droughts and European banking meltdowns aren't caused by Presidents not funding social programs, in case you didn't know.

Do some research and open your mind. Hoover wasn't that bad of a president and did some fabulous work as a public servant prior to assuming the presidency. Malign him however you like - nothing you write will change historical facts of record.

BTW - no PA was made. Deal with it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[micro 0]

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Horrid attempt at logic. Hoover's opposition to gov't social programs no more caused the economic downturn in and of itself than my boycott of the NBA since the early 90's led to the increase in popularity of NASCAR during the intervening time period.

SHAME ON YOU for allowing NASCAR to become so fucking popular.

No More Tequila For You!

... until tomorrow.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[TheAnvil 0]

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No More Tequila For You!

... until tomorrow.

I refuse to bow to your dictatoiral tendencies.

Tequila passes down my throat as I type...

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!