"The US and Israel stand alone"

[idrankwhat 0]

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If the Israelis were attacking Lebanon and not the Hezbollah terrorists embedded theirein, their methods and targets of attack would have been much, much different. There would be no Lebanese army left to enter Southern Lebanon. The US did not support an attack on the nation of Lebanon - we support attacks on the terrorists taking refuge there.

I never said that Israel attacked the nation. I said that they blew up most of the infrastructure over the entire state. That affects the entire nation and the tactic has backfired. Hizbollah has plenty of support, probably more than they had a month ago. And with their rebuilding efforts and charity efforts they are the only ones who are showing that they give a shit about Lebanon, (do ya think the Lebanese consider them terrorists?).The US was complicit in the destruction. We knew it was coming for almost a year and we delayed the international response AND rushed to send MORE bombs so that Israel could inflict more damage. So I guess we should look on the bright side. Time to go out and buy some more defense contractor stocks. We just made even more enemies.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

I haven't read anywhere but here in this thread about the 6 month gate and release program the Israelis are purportedly running. I don't agree with such a system. Do you have any Reuters/AP or other links?

There are quite a few references to administrative detention in the news and at the UN website. The best description regarding the policy I found so far was from Amnesty International.
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-action-detention

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Hezbollah is a nation state? I think not.

Nice try. The previous posters were talking about Palestine and Israel. Aren't you the one always telling people to carefully read posts and stay on track, reading comprehension and all that?

[Andy9o8 2]

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The US was Iran and Syria were complicit in the destruction. We knew it was coming They were doing everything to make it happen almost a year virtually from the moment Israel pulled out of Lebanon 5 years ago and we delayed the international response AND rushed to send they spent those 5 years systematically sending about 15,000 offensive missiles to Hezbollah in Lebanon MORE bombs so that Israel they, through their Hezbollah proxies, could inflict more damage

Fixed it for ya.

[falxori 0]

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Hezbollah is a political party elected by the people of Lebanon; it has 10% of the seats in Parliament right now. Hamas is also a political party that won more than 50% of the seats of government last time.

so let me get that straight, attacking Hezbollah is attacking lebanon because they were elected to parliment?
doesn't it also mean that Hezbollah's attack on Israel (which ignited everything) is an attack by Lebanon as a state?
same goes for Hamas and the PA (even more so because they are in control of the government)

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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The US was Iran and Syria were complicit in the destruction. We knew it was coming They were doing everything to make it happen almost a year virtually from the moment Israel pulled out of Lebanon 5 years ago and we delayed the international response AND rushed to send they spent those 5 years systematically sending about 15,000 offensive missiles to Hezbollah in Lebanon MORE bombs so that Israel they, through their Hezbollah proxies, could inflict more damage

Fixed it for ya.

You could have just added your comment. No need to negate mine.

[TheAnvil 0]

I enjoy speaking about it so much I'll do so again. Bill was talking about Hezbollah. The others in the conversation were speaking of Hamas.

You're right. So important to stay on track.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,112]

>However, since Guantanamo detainees were captured overseas . . .

Right, and two of Hezbollah's prisoners were captured across the border.

[billvon 3,112]

> attacking Hezbollah is attacking lebanon because they were elected to parliment?

If someone tried to blow up the RNC, would you claim that it wasn't an attack against the US - it was just an attack against the GOP?

>doesn't it also mean that Hezbollah's attack on Israel (which ignited
>everything) is an attack by Lebanon as a state?

Yes, as much as an attack led by George Bush (a member of the GOP) is an attack by the United States.

[falxori 0]

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> attacking Hezbollah is attacking lebanon because they were elected to parliment?

If someone tried to blow up the RNC, would you claim that it wasn't an attack against the US - it was just an attack against the GOP?

>doesn't it also mean that Hezbollah's attack on Israel (which ignited
>everything) is an attack by Lebanon as a state?

Yes, as much as an attack led by George Bush (a member of the GOP) is an attack by the United States

exactly.
an attack from one country's teritory on another country's teritory is an attack of the 1st country on the other.
so Israel had every right to attack any part of lebanon since the attack on it came from lebanon (and its a lebanese problem if they can't control who is firing from their teritory).
the fact that Israel did not attack the Lebanese army but mostly the Hezbollah directly is something to be said on its behalf

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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an attack from one country's teritory on another country's teritory is an attack of the 1st country on the other.

Interesting. Where exactly are your borders again?

[falxori 0]

the israeli-lebanese border is very well defined.
the israeli-Gaza border is very well defined
the border between israel and the west bank is yet to be defined (hopefully by a peact treaty) but there are already parts which are officially under PA control which was the first step to a complete peace treaty (at least until it broke down in 2000.

now since this threat is mainly about lebanon and some about Gaza, what's exactly is your problem with what i've said?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Andy9o8 2]

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If someone tried to blow up the RNC, would you claim that it wasn't an attack against the US - it was just an attack against the GOP?

Yeah. You know, a surgical strike.

[idrankwhat 0]

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the israeli-lebanese border is very well defined.
the israeli-Gaza border is very well defined
the border between israel and the west bank is yet to be defined (hopefully by a peact treaty) but there are already parts which are officially under PA control which was the first step to a complete peace treaty (at least until it broke down in 2000.

now since this threat is mainly about lebanon and some about Gaza, what's exactly is your problem with what i've said?

I have a problem with your implied assertion that "they" crossed the border first and that Israel hasn't been doing it on a regular basis. There is no "first". In addition, what about Shebaa Farms in Lebanon? Golan?

[falxori 0]

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I have a problem with your implied assertion that "they" crossed the border first

its not an "implied assertion" its fact.
Israel has pulled out of lebanon more than 6 years ago and even the UN who is anything but pro israeli has recognized it. in the past 6 years Hezbollah with the aid of Iran and Syria has been arming itself to the teeth (shooting every now and then), the fact that they crossed into israel in an act of war is ,well, a fact.
the same goes for Gaza, Israel has pulled out completely but rockets didn't stop flying out of there.

the sheba farms was a part of syria, not lebanon and its future, much like the Golan will be determined in peace talks with syria (althoguh based on the Syrian militaristic speech a few days ago i'm not sure it will happen anytime soon)
Hezbollah is using the Sheba farms as an excuse to justify its existance, if it wasn't that it would have been something else and beside, even if you insist that the sheba farms are lebanese, its status should be discussed with the lebanese governmrnt, not Hezbollah.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[TheAnvil 0]

We knew the Hebollah terrorists were going to kidnap two Israeli soldiers a year in advance? Odd that we did nothing to prevent their abduction.

As an ally of Israel, why shouldn't the US help them after they've been attacked by terrorists?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,112]

>why shouldn't the US help them after they've been attacked by terrorists?

Hmm! Yet you seem all bent out of shape that Iran is helping _their_ allies. What's good for the goose and all that.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I have a problem with your implied assertion that "they" crossed the border first

its not an "implied assertion" its fact.
I guess it depends on when you start the clock.

Israel has pulled out of lebanon more than 6 years ago and even the UN who is anything but pro israeli has recognized it. in the past 6 years Hezbollah with the aid of Iran and Syria has been arming itself to the teeth (shooting every now and then), the fact that they crossed into israel in an act of war is ,well, a fact.
They supposedly crossed the border and kidnapped those two soldiers so they could bargain for three that Israel refused to release. But they did kidnap them, no argument. And it was the trigger for Israel to launch their premeditated war that was vastly disproportionate and violated numerous international laws and the Geneva conventions. Fact.

the same goes for Gaza, Israel has pulled out completely but rockets didn't stop flying out of there.
And the missiles never quit flying into Gaza either

the sheba farms was a part of syria, not lebanon and its future, much like the Golan will be determined in peace talks with syria (althoguh based on the Syrian militaristic speech a few days ago i'm not sure it will happen anytime soon)
Hezbollah is using the Sheba farms as an excuse to justify its existance, if it wasn't that it would have been something else and beside, even if you insist that the sheba farms are lebanese, its status should be discussed with the lebanese governmrnt, not Hezbollah.
Hmm...so to summarize...Israel is occupying land that's not theirs and they'll supposedly give it up when the peace talks come. Seems to me that if no peace talks come then you don't have to draw up a border, vacate the land.....with the winery... and the ski resort.... and the water supply.....and the.......oh wait. I have one more question. Do the west bank settlers get the same $30,000/yr that the Gaza settlers got?

[TheAnvil 0]

When terrorists are allies, I've problems with both the terrorists and those aiding them.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,112]

>When terrorists are allies, I've problems with both the terrorists
>and those aiding them.

Hmm. Yet we have absolutely no problem aiding terrorists when they are fighting someone _we_ dislike.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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When terrorists are allies, I've problems with both the terrorists and those aiding them.

So you would have a problem with the US giving aid to "freedom fighters" in Cuba?

[TheAnvil 0]

At this point in time? It would depend upon the situation, but probably not. I think the right course of action with regards to Cuba is as Mr. Carter described. Economic engagement via the lifting of the trade embargo and travel restrictions for U.S. citizens and companies.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[idrankwhat 0]

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When terrorists are allies, I've problems with both the terrorists and those aiding them.

Just a reminder, Saudi's and Pakistani's who trained in Pakistan (you know, where OBL is probably hanging out) attacked us in 2001. And where was it again that the terrorists recently arrested in London came from, trained in? C'mon....starts with "P" and get's lots of money from the US treasury...work with me here.

[TheAnvil 0]

I've got lots of problems with Pakistan and our policy towards them. A cursory review of the last few decades of history of Pakistan's involvement with the terrorists is most revealing. I have little doubt their ISI is hampering our efforts in Afghanistan as I type this.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[falxori 0]

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I guess it depends on when you start the clock.

i start the clock with the unprovoked attack after Israel has fullfilled every UN resolution concerning lebanon. show me what Israel has done "first" to induce Hezbollah's attack?

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And it was the trigger for Israel to launch their premeditated war that was vastly disproportionate and violated numerous international laws and the Geneva conventions. Fact.

you say it was "premeditated" because Israel had plans about it? every responsible country has plans in the drawer for many scenarios. watching Hezbollah building up an arsenal of 15,000 rockets, theatening to use it is a good enough reason to have plans for war. and Israel's response was no disproportionate, it was meant to remove Hezbollah's threat not to revenge the loss of the soldiers.

you can't hide behined the geneva conventions at the same time you are hiding behind civilians. the same international law states fighters should be clearly marked and not operate from civilian areas.

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And the missiles never quit flying into Gaza either

you know very well that it would if none came out of it.

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Hmm...so to summarize...Israel is occupying land that's not theirs

who's land it is is debateable and Israel's claim over it is as valid (if not more) than others.
just to remind you, Israel did not chose these wars and in wars land change ownership (as it since the dawn of man and even before). whether/when it will be given back to syria depends on the peace deal that will be achieved.

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I have one more question. Do the west bank settlers get the same $30,000/yr that the Gaza settlers got?

what are you talking about?
i don't know of any 30K/yr anyone is getting, but even if, what does it have to do with anything>?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."