We the People

[cumplidor 0]

A very interesting perspective from someone who was born and lived there, and chosen to think outside the box.

http://www.geocities.com/schossen/wethepeople.htm

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We The People
by Reuven Schossen

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America…"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Beautiful words! The US Constitution has been for me a timeless example of good and just government. Unfortunately, I do not belong to such a "We The People."

In the place I come from, there is no Constitution.

In the place I come from, different kinds of people have different rights and responsibilities. Usually, people with many rights have few responsibilities. Some of the people must serve in the army on pain of imprisonment; others are exempted. Of those exempted, some belong to the elite and enjoy unusual benefits; others belong to minorities with very few rights.

In a recent case, the Supreme Court of my country, sitting down to its most special meeting of thirteen of our most prominent judges, decided to forbid marriage between a citizen from one part of my country with a person from a territory occupied by my country.

In the place I come from, my religion was decided for me by the State and is coded into the internal passport required by my government. Trying to officially change my religion could be a useless lifelong struggle.

In the place I come from, I can marry a Christian in a church; but the ceremony will not be recognized by the state and my children will be bastards and denied many rights because my parents were Jews. There are no civil ceremonies and one must get married in the temple belonging to the religion indicated on the internal passport.

I come from Israel.

Can Israel justify discrimination using Scripture? Hardly so. Perhaps the most beautiful text denouncing discrimination is Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one..." You may say that Israel does not recognize the New Testament and thus is not bound by its message. But the whole of Isaiah 58 is a reminder that God requires charitability and respect for all people, especially the less fortunate. It is clear that the State of Israel is not the same as the spiritual Kingdom of Israel promised to believers regardless of their ethnic background.

It is time for you, American citizens, carriers - at least in name - of the Human Rights Torch, to decide if you will stand by the sublime ideals institutionalized by your ancestors or if you will continue to support a society which does not abide by such ideals and de facto violates them every day. History teaches that discriminating regimes do not last, the list is too long for such an article, hence I'll mention only Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and the white regime in South Africa. Israel, unless it adopts a Constitution promising equal rights and responsibilities to all its citizens, regardless of religion, race and gender, will cease to exist. It is time for you, American citizens, to decide if your nation will follow Israel into the dustbin of history or will remember that "We the People" must set an example for others to follow.

Published by The Sun News, in Santa Fe, New Mexico, June 25, 2006

[Channman 2]

Throwing out a few versus, how clever...missed the one concerning My people Israel, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.

Coming from someone who my nether be Jew or Christain.

[falxori 0]

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A very interesting perspective from someone who was born and lived there, and chosen to think outside the box.

some of his points are valid, most are far from accurate.
I can't say that there is no discrimination. there is everywhere on this planet. but suggesting that it is embedded in Israel's law book is simply not true.


for example

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the Supreme Court of my country, , decided to forbid marriage between a citizen from one part of my country with a person from a territory occupied by my country.

the ruling was that no automatic citizenship will be given based on marriege, not that you can't marry.

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There are no civil ceremonies and one must get married in the temple

there are no civil ceremonies (and not even alternative religious ones) but if you get married elsewhere in a civil service, it is recognized by the state (although not by the religious institutes)

Israel doesn't have a constitution yet, thats true, but there is a set of base laws that define things like government type, freedom and equality by law.

I will not quote actual laws, but here is a part of the Israeli declaration of Independence which pretty much sums it up.

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THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[cumplidor 0]

Thanks for addressing those items for me. I obviously have never been there, and read alot, so that helps.

I have another item that I have heard, so if you know of this- Is there truth to Palestinians who are living in Isreal not being considered 'full citizens' of Israel because they are not Jewish? Are there different types of 'citizens' defined by Israel law? If so, do full citizens have rights not afforded to other citizens?

[cumplidor 0]

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...and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

This doesn't mean 'faithful to UN Resolutions' does it?

[falxori 0]

no. there is only one type of israeli citizenship.
Israeli Arabs who were within the borders of Israel in 1948 were given full Israeli citizenship and have the same rights as any other Israeli (jewish or non jewish)
most arabs do not serve in the military (beside most of the druze and beduin who do) like most israelis (beside the orthodox religious jews who also don't serve in the army)

the only "unique" status is of arabs in eastern jerusalem (annexed after 1967) who are allowed to vote, get all social benefits and have Israeli ID cards but i think there is a difference in their legal status from a normal citizen.

your whole implication of differences based on race or religion is simply not true.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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If this was a direct quote, or even close, it is pretty slick becuase they certainly choose which UN resolutions to follow, but they will follow the 'principles of the Charter of the UN'

it means the UN charter to establish Israel as a nation.
the descussion about the UN and its role in this conflict is long and complicated and its been discussed here many times before

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Can a non-jew currently immigrate to Israel?

[cumplidor 0]

Where did all the Palestinian refugees come from? I thought these were the people who were displaced when Israel was created?

Could I become a citizen as an Anglo/Saxon Christian in Israel?

[falxori 0]

yes.
by family relation to a citizen, by getting a work permit and staying here for a few years or by marring an Israeli citizen. much like most of the other countries on this planet.

the difference you refer to is the jews can immigrate to Israel without all that and it was done in order to make sure every jew on this planet could find refuge here.
i'm sure you can see why they felt it was needed after the holocaust.
but it doesn't mean others can't, if they meet the normal requirements

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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Where did all the Palestinian refugees come from?

some fled in 1948 when Israel was created. those who didn't became Israeli citizens (and are about 20% of the population, have members in the parliment etc.)

if you are talking about the west bank, that is not part of Israel and the population there does not have Israeli citizenship.

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Could I become a citizen as an Anglo/Saxon Christian in Israel?

yes, much like an Israeli can become a US citizen, either by being born there, get a work permit or marring a citizen.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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by family relation to a citizen, by getting a work permit and staying here for a few years or by marring an Israeli citizen. much like most of the other countries on this planet.

That really isn't the same as most other countries. In practice this means that Israel is mostly closed to non-jews.

[cumplidor 0]

sorry, caught me during changing my mind.

[falxori 0]

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That really isn't the same as most other countries. In practice this means that Israel is mostly closed to non-jews.

no, it means that Israel is as open to immigration as any other country with the exception that jews can find a refuge here if they need it (based on historic events, they do).

I don't remember the US or western europe allowing free immigration these days.
in that sense, you can move to Israel under the same conditions i could move to the US (if i werent a US citizen , which i am.)

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I don't remember the US or western europe allowing free immigration these days.

Not free, but there are more options than the ones you listed for Israel.

[falxori 0]

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I don't remember the US or western europe allowing free immigration these days.

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Not free, but there are more options than the ones you listed for Israel

such as?
if I take the US as an example, as far as I know you can get citizenship either by being born there, being born to a US citizen parent or getting a green card and residing there for a few years.
as far as I know in the EU its pretty much the same.
some countries are easier than others (e.g canada Vs. the US).

the basic ways to become a citizen in most countries as far as I know are:
-being born there
-having a parent or grand parent who is a citizen
-marrying a citizen (sometimes with a delay of a few years)
-residing there for several years and applying for citizenship (usually you need to proove your "center of life" is in the same country
-special cases decided by the authorities
what other options do you know of?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

refugees
bring lots of money
brainpower
US: Lottery


edited to add: Doesn't the Law of Return say that non-jews can immigrate to Israel if they are: non-Jews who are either children or grandchildren of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew or the spouse of a child or grandchild of a Jew? Notice how it states Jew, not Israeli.
But, to further on the work permit side. how easy is it to get a work permit for a non-jew.

[falxori 0]

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refugees

here you go:
http://www.zygotefilms.com/vaan_jpost.htm

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bring lots of money

i don't know of any law about that in israel but i'm sure if you invest a lot of money somewhere, they'll consider your application favorably.

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brainpower

"brainpower" can give you credit on your application, but it doesnt automatically grants you citizenship.
like any other country, if they feel you'll be useful, you'll be able to work there more easily (and get citizenship after a few years)

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US: Lottery

none in Israel, but I don't think its very common outside the US.

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But, to further on the work permit side. how easy is it to get a work permit for a non-jew.

in 2000 (the statistics i've found on a quick search) there are about 150,000 legal foreign workers (and about as many illegals who have outstayed their permits or came as tourists) in Israel. thats about 15% of the workforce.

getting a permit depends on what you do and how required it is in Israel. it has nothing to do with your race, skin color or religion (most of the foreign workers are from asia, africa and eastern europe)

this whole threat had a point to display Israel as a state with racist laws which it is not.
it IS easier for jews to move to Israel but it doesn't mean other can't. they simply have to face the same procedure and meet the same standards they would in any other country

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."