White House Fears War Crimes Proesecution

[Andy9o8 3]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/08/AR2006080801276_pf.html

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War Crimes Act Changes Would Reduce Threat Of Prosecution

By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 9, 2006; A01

The Bush administration has drafted amendments to a war crimes law that would eliminate the risk of prosecution for political appointees, CIA officers and former military personnel for humiliating or degrading war prisoners, according to U.S. officials and a copy of the amendments.

Officials say the amendments would alter a U.S. law passed in the mid-1990s that criminalized violations of the Geneva Conventions, a set of international treaties governing military conduct in wartime. The conventions generally bar the cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment of wartime prisoners without spelling out what all those terms mean.

The draft U.S. amendments to the War Crimes Act would narrow the scope of potential criminal prosecutions to 10 specific categories of illegal acts against detainees during a war, including torture, murder, rape and hostage-taking.

Left off the list would be what the Geneva Conventions refer to as "outrages upon [the] personal dignity" of a prisoner and deliberately humiliating acts -- such as the forced nakedness, use of dog leashes and wearing of women's underwear seen at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq -- that fall short of torture.

..............

Retired Rear Adm. John D. Hutson, the Navy's top uniformed lawyer from 1997 to 2000 and now dean of the Franklin Pierce Law Center, said his view is "don't trust the motives of any lawyer who changes a statutory provision that is short, clear, and to the point and replaces it with something that is much longer, more complicated, and includes exceptions within exceptions."

[rushmc 23]

Except for the title of this thread being BS, what is your point?

Vague laws make for good (nutty) politcal investigations. Make it more clear and crimes commited are more identifiable and more easily prosocuted

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

>Vague laws make for good (nutty) politcal investigations. Make it more
> clear and crimes commited are more identifiable and more easily
> prosocuted.

So what you're saying is that you don't trust laws that are vauge, verbose, overly complicated and include exceptions within exceptions? You'd rather have laws that are short, clear and to the point?

[livendive 8]

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Vague laws make for good (nutty) politcal investigations. Make it more clear and crimes commited are more identifiable and more easily prosocuted

I agree. "Break the Geneva Conventions and you risk prosecution for war crimes" is a clear law. "Break parts a, b, c, d, or e of the Geneva Convention and you risk prosecution for war crimes except when the person breaking the Conventions is of type x, y, or z, and the convention is d" is a bit more difficult to follow. Don't you agree?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

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Vague laws make for good (nutty) politcal investigations. Make it more clear and crimes commited are more identifiable and more easily prosocuted

I agree. "Break the Geneva Conventions and you risk prosecution for war crimes" is a clear law. "Break parts a, b, c, d, or e of the Geneva Convention and you risk prosecution for war crimes except when the person breaking the Conventions is of type x, y, or z, and the convention is d" is a bit more difficult to follow. Don't you agree?

Blues,
Dave

Do you really expect a response to this drivel?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Do you really expect a response to this drivel?

At least you admit it is drivel, since that is exactly what the changes to the Act would do.

[livendive 8]

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Do you really expect a response to this drivel?

If that was too complex for you, I'll just list the current law in its entirety.

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TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 118--WAR CRIMES

Sec. 2441. War crimes

....(a) Offense.--Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
....(b) Circumstances.--The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
....(c) Definition.--As used in this section the term ``war crime'' means any conduct--
........(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
........(2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
........(3) which constitutes a violation of common Article 3 of the international conventions signed at Geneva, 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party and which deals with non-international armed conflict; or
........(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

What part of that do you find so vague and confusing?

The administration has not officially released the draft amendments, but rest assured that they will be much more complex and are only being written to avoid prosecution of personnel who were following their illegal guidance (i.e. that our prisoners do not warrant protections under the Geneva Conventions.) As soon as the Supreme Court ruled against them, there was a massive slamming shut of assholes suddenly concerned about prosecution under article (c)(3) listed above.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,182]

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Quote

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Vague laws make for good (nutty) politcal investigations. Make it more clear and crimes commited are more identifiable and more easily prosocuted

I agree. "Break the Geneva Conventions and you risk prosecution for war crimes" is a clear law. "Break parts a, b, c, d, or e of the Geneva Convention and you risk prosecution for war crimes except when the person breaking the Conventions is of type x, y, or z, and the convention is d" is a bit more difficult to follow. Don't you agree?

Blues,
Dave

Do you really expect a response to this drivel?

Don't have a response, eh?

Looks to me like a serious case of ass-covering.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

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Don't have a response, eh?

Looks to me like a serious case of ass-covering.

My favourite bit is where POLITICIANS would be exempt from prosecution!
Such a shame that the likes of Hitler, Hess, Goering, Milosovic, etc... Weren't around and facing trial under the proposed changes today!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[rushmc 23]

OK,
We all know it is the seriousness of the crime. Not evidence so I understand where you are coming from

Thanks


By the way, did I defend Bush in any way? Did I say this was only a current administration problem.

Got any valium? better take it and chill

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

You wish

Read below.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

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OK,
We all know it is the seriousness of the crime. Not evidence so I understand where you are coming from

I don't know what second phrase means, but as for the first sentence, I agree there are violations that I would consider less serious than others. Making a guy parade in front of a camera in women's underwear would be MUCH less serious than, say, pulling out his fingernails. I think the punitive options (ranging from a fine to death) would allow a judge to take the seriousness of the crime into account.

Now can you agree that the only reason the White House is pressing for amendment of this law (so soon after their loss at the Supreme Court) is to deflect potential prosecutions over actions already taken?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

If they're covered under the GC, then they can be tried by military courts... so I guess Gitmo will be staying open.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[hairyjuan 0]

you left out Title 50 which classifies DEPLETEDURANIUM as a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[rushmc 23]

Now can you agree that the only reason the White House is pressing for amendment of this law (so soon after their loss at the Supreme Court) is to deflect potential prosecutions over actions already taken?

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I do not believe so.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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[livendive 8]

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you left out Title 50 which classifies DEPLETEDURANIUM as a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION

I didn't leave anything out. I quoted the entire law as it currently exists.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Now can you agree that the only reason the White House is pressing for amendment of this law (so soon after their loss at the Supreme Court) is to deflect potential prosecutions over actions already taken?

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I do not believe so.

Must just be a coincidence.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

• Quote

[rushmc 23]

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Quote

Now can you agree that the only reason the White House is pressing for amendment of this law (so soon after their loss at the Supreme Court) is to deflect potential prosecutions over actions already taken?

Quote

I do not believe so.

Must just be a coincidence.

Blues,
Dave

Ya, you and your same thinkers are they only ones that understand the evil of the current admin. Enjoy your high horse.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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