Same conflict, different aspect

[idrankwhat 0]

I heard this last night and it reminded me of the number of posts I've read that praised Israel for succeeding in the region and berated its Arab neighbors as backwards and incapable or uninterested in developing their countries into thriving members of the world economy. I don't really expect this to spark much debate but I thought it was interesting enough to share.


http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/08/PM200608084.html
TEXT OF STORY

KAI RYSSDAL: At the United Nations in New York today, there was some resistance to a resolution calling for an international force in Lebanon. Diplomats from the Arab League are pushing back against the plan written by the US and France. Over on the ground, though, the fighting goes on. The human toll continues to mount on both sides, and the economic toll in Lebanon is reported at around $7 billion. Ben Gilbert reports now from Beirut.
BEN GILBERT: Sami Hadad spent years bouncing from country to country as an economist and regional director for the World Bank's International Finance Corporation. Like many Lebanese, he left after civil war erupted here in 1975. The fighting lasted for 15 years and tore his country apart. Then, last year, he saw Lebanon start to blossom again. Investment was growing and tourism was up. He decided it was time to do his part and move back.

SAMI HADAD: "I was very eager to help rebuilding the Lebanese economy. I initially thought I would end up somewhere, the private sector, more specifically in financial sector."

Sami Haddad was named the Minister for Economics and Trade last year, a position he had never imagined having, but one that would have allowed him to carefully shepherd the economy's growth. But he says that in the past month, his hopes for Lebanon's future have been pulverized.

HADAD: "The war is having a devastating effect on economy, it's an absolute disaster."

Lebanon has a population of about four million people, roughly the size of Connecticut. It had a GDP of around $24 billion a year until the bombing started. The southern part of the country has taken the brunt of the bombing, but the war's impact on the economy is everywhere. Shops are shuttered. There are few cars on the street. Gasoline is being rationed and power cuts get longer each day. But the most obvious sign is the destruction of infrastructure.

MARWAN ISKANDER: "Which means roads, which means lets say water delivery systems, which means electricity distribution systems, which means hospitals, plants, factories, etc."

Economist Marwan Iskander estimates the total damage to Lebanon's infrastructure alone to be $2.5 billion, so far. Then, Iskander says, there's the opportunity loss. In early 2006, The Lebanese economy was growing at 6 percent. Now he expects the economy to shrink by 9 percent.

ISKANDER: "Nine percent is just over $2.1 billion, in addition to infrastructure destruction that has taken place."

Essentially, Lebanon's economic lifelines have been destroyed. The government won't be able to collect hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes for months, because there's no income. The record-breaking 1.5 million tourists who were set to arrive this summer have fled or changed plans, with a loss of possibly $2 billion. Along with the tourists might have gone Lebanon's most valuable asset, it's educated and enterprising citizens with dual nationality."

ISKANDER: "The wealth of this country is its human capital, so if the best leave, it impoverishes the country tremendously."

And the largest cost may be yet to come. So far, an estimated quarter of the population has been displaced by the fighting. Government officials estimate 25,000 people lost their homes in Beirut's southern suburbs alone.

Whole villages have been leveled in southern Lebanon. Those residents are now living in schools around the country. Some have fled to Syria. Iskander says that eventually they will want to go home.

ISKANDER: "When these people come back, how will we accommodate them? The essential problems are problems relating to housing, to schools, to infirmaries and hospitals, and this is a difficult challenge to meet."

With a land and sea blockade virtually sealing off Lebanon from the rest of the world, most Lebanese these days worry more about getting enough gasoline and food than about the future effects of the current conflict.

In Beirut, I'm Ben Gilbert for Marketplace.

[beowulf 1]

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ISKANDER: "When these people come back, how will we accommodate them? The essential problems are problems relating to housing, to schools, to infirmaries and hospitals, and this is a difficult challenge to meet."

I am sure Hezbollah will be able to meet all those needs.

[Darius11 12]

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ISKANDER: "When these people come back, how will we accommodate them? The essential problems are problems relating to housing, to schools, to infirmaries and hospitals, and this is a difficult challenge to meet."

I am sure Hezbollah will be able to meet all those needs.

How are you sure and what are you sure about?

Was that yet another sarcastic remark? Do the facts hurt? Or does it make you feel uncomfortable that the government you support has ruined so many lives? Does it make you feel better pretending all the people who lives have been changed or killed are brown people or terrorists?

I remember an old Iranian saying when i see your posts.

What differs the air that leaves your mouth from the air that exits your ass is rational thought or else its all just hot air.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[beowulf 1]

I don't personally support Israel, but if Hezbollah hadn't started this offense then this would not be happening. That is pretty damn clear. In this case Israel didn't attack Hezbollah with out provocation.

I find your references to brown people to be rather humorous. You don't know me. You don't know my nationality. How do you infer from my statement that I am against brown people?

Do you support Hezbollah??

[jakee 1,593]

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In this case Israel didn't attack Hezbollah with out provocation.

How does the destruction of homes, infrastructure and governmental buildings in Beirut affect Hezbollah's ability to carry out missile strikes from southern Lebanon?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[beowulf 1]

It really doesn't matter if those are truly legitimate military targets or not. The bottom line remains Hezbollah started a war they cannot finish. All wars have collateral damage and casualties. Hezbollah's strategy increases the amount of collateral damage. If Hezbollah hadn't started this war there would be no war.

[jakee 1,593]

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It really doesn't matter if those are truly legitimate military targets or not. The bottom line remains Hezbollah started a war they cannot finish. All wars have collateral damage and casualties. Hezbollah's strategy increases the amount of collateral damage. If Hezbollah hadn't started this war there would be no war.

Hezbollah /= the state of Lebanon.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[beowulf 1]

The state of Lebanon houses them. They support Hezbollah.

side note.

I have never seen the Not equal statement written as /=. Where is this from? I have seen it written as != or =! or <>

[Andy9o8 2]

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What differs the air that leaves your mouth from the air that exits your ass is rational thought or else its all just hot air.

I imagine it sounds better in Farsi.
Actually, it's a pretty wise saying.

So who is responsible for the devastation of Lebanon? The arguments for blaming Hezbollah for starting it and Israel for not using restraint have been made over and over. Let's not debate those again.
But what about Iran, which founded, funds, and actively arms, supports, trains, and encourages Hezbollah? What about Syria, which systematically looted and raped Lebanon over the past 20 years, and allows itself to be the land bridge between Iran and Lebanon in Iran's supply of weapons to Hezbollah?

The answer, of course, is they're all responsible for it. And they should all pay dearly to rebuild it.

The destruction of Lebanon makes me sick. I've heard estimates that once the fighting is over, it will take several years to rebuild its infrastructure and get its economy back on its feet. That's unacceptable. The world community should institute a Marshall Plan, much like the one that rebuilt Europe after WW2, to re-build Lebanon. I could go into more detail about this, but I have to get back to work.

[kallend 2,146]

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It really doesn't matter if those are truly legitimate military targets or not. The bottom line remains Hezbollah started a war they cannot finish. All wars have collateral damage and casualties. Hezbollah's strategy increases the amount of collateral damage. If Hezbollah hadn't started this war there would be no war.

The 9/11 terrorists departed from Boston. Does that make the state of Massachusetts a legitimate target for military retaliation?

Should Britain have bombed Dublin and invaded the Republic of Ireland after any IRA outrage?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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It really doesn't matter if those are truly legitimate military targets or not. The bottom line remains Hezbollah started a war they cannot finish. All wars have collateral damage and casualties. Hezbollah's strategy increases the amount of collateral damage. If Hezbollah hadn't started this war there would be no war.

Hezbollah /= the state of Lebanon.

Lebanon, by not intervening with Hizbollah's free operation within its borders, was harboring them. Makes them a fair target.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[beowulf 1]

Those are hardly analogous to the current situation. Boston didn't knowingly harbor and support Al Qaeda. If the IRA were to do the same things that Hezbollah did I am sure Britain would react quite harshly. As of yet I have never heard of the IRA launching missiles at Britain or kidnapping any British soldiers, have you?

[jakee 1,593]

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I have never seen the Not equal statement written as /=. Where is this from? I have seen it written as != or =! or <>

If I was handwriting it I'd put the diagonal slash through the equals. I don't really know what the convention is for typing it but hey, as long as its recognisable right?

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The state of Lebanon houses them. They support Hezbollah.

That argument may hold up in cases of collateral damage when Hezbollah units were being targeted. Where is the rational in deliberately targeting Lebanese military, economic and civilian targets far removed from the actual fighting? How is Hezbollah being materially harmed by, for instance, bombing a Lebanese oil facility causing the biggest oil slick since Exxon Valdez?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,593]

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As of yet I have never heard of the IRA launching missiles at Britain or kidnapping any British soldiers, have you?

No missiles but plenty of nail bombs and some kidnapped soldiers and RUC officers.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Lebanon, by not intervening with Hizbollah's free operation within its borders, was harboring them. Makes them a fair target.

By that logic then then Arab use of unguided rockets or suicide vests against the Israeli citizenry is also justified.

[beowulf 1]

I don't support anything and everything that Israel does. I don't think Israel should even exist. The bottom line still remains Hezbollah is responsible for this war and all casulties. Hezbollah started it and can stop it.

[beowulf 1]

If they had kidnapped soldiers and started firing missiles at Britain and hiding behind civilians and kept headquarters in Dublin. What do you think would be the British response?
And I don't mean seperate incidents, but as a military front.

[kallend 2,146]

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Those are hardly analogous to the current situation. Boston didn't knowingly harbor and support Al Qaeda. If the IRA were to do the same things that Hezbollah did I am sure Britain would react quite harshly. As of yet I have never heard of the IRA launching missiles at Britain or kidnapping any British soldiers, have you?

IRA most certainly kidnapped and killed British civilians and killed British soldiers, and fired missiles at British aircraft in Northern Ireland, which IS part of Britain. Set plenty of bombs in Britain too. The USA provided funds and guns to the IRA, maybe Britain should have bombed Boston too. Hezbollah !=Lebanon just like IRA !=Boston and IRA !=Dublin.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

Really
How do you know that the US Gov. funded and armed the IRA? That would be big news. I may be only 33 years old but I have never heard of this. When has there been a sustained military offense by IRA?

You still think the Boston analogy is relevent?

[beowulf 1]

Do you think if the Hezbollah were to cease fire right now and fade back into the population Israel would continue their offense?

[kallend 2,146]

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Do you think if the Hezbollah were to cease fire right now and fade back into the population Israel would continue their offense?

I cannot predict what politicians will do.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The bottom line still remains Hezbollah is responsible for this war and all casulties. Hezbollah started it and can stop it.

That's accurate only if you don't take into consideration the role Israel played prior to one month ago.

[kallend 2,146]

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Really
How do you know that the US Gov. funded and armed the IRA? That would be big news. I may be only 33 years old but I have never heard of this. When has there been a sustained military offense by IRA?

You still think the Boston analogy is relevent?

Did the Lebanese govt. fund and sustain Hezbollah? To the best of my knowledge they wanted HB gone about as badly as Israel did. The IRA sustained a low grade paramilitary offensive over a 30 year period, funded extensively by contributions from US citizens, and based in the Republic of Ireland.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I find your references to brown people to be rather humorous.

You are supposed to run and cower at the direct accusation of quasi-racism.

Though, I know people from both Israel and Lebanon and if you put them in the same room in similar clothes, I doubt most people could tell which country they came from just by looking at them. It shows, really, how those vested in the conflict will use any argument, no matter how silly, to push their side.

The race card is a nice lazy tactic to use in any argument, try it in innocuous situations:

"honey, let's go eat gyro's tonight"

"Why, you got something again mexicans?"

"fine, let's eat at El Lorro again (sigh)". {{See how easy it is to get agreement for more delicious enchiladas?}}

I'm more surprised that the repeated veiled accusations of racism doesn't get any warnings though.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[beowulf 1]

Right and that doesn't compare to Hezbollah. Who are not sustaining a low grade offensive, but a much higher grade offensive. Hezbollah has a part in the Lebonese Govt. I would call that funding and sustaining Hezbollah.