USA Federal deficit

[Lucky... 0]

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>Still think Corps. pay taxes, huh?
>Raise Corp taxes 15%, they will raise prices 15%. Who's getting
>soaked then? Amazing you can't see the shell game.

Still think that tax cuts make debt disappear? Amazing that some people think that if we cut taxes, the money owed just . . . goes away.

Amazing that some people think the way to stimulate business and keep people employed is to raise their operating costs.

Oh, and while we are at it, lets raise individual taxes so they won't be able to buy as much. Great plan.

And then the money gets redistributed and those recipients spend it, spurring the economy.

Aside from textbook reasons why the economy should react how, show me in recent history where your plan works and mine doesn't.

17 1/2 years of Reagan/Bush/Bush has given us about 6 trillion$ in debt, while 8 years of CLinton rose the debt 1.5 T and the debt had actually turnbed horizontal and there was an annual surplus for the first time in 40 years; can you splain that? Can you splain why it is your textbook version works on your paper, but not in application?

[TheAnvil 0]

Read the data I posted for you. Pay particular attention to the mandatory spending data. Also pay attention to the tax revenue data. The gov't posted increased revenues after GWB's tax cuts turned the economy around. Deal with it. Spending more than one has causes debt - not tax cuts.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Lucky... 0]

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They can only charge what the market will bear, but the the gov can redistribute monies where they are needed. Let corps hang on to cash and they sit on it at times, stagnating the economy.

Right and when you raise taxes on all business's then they all raise their prices and we all pay more for their products. Still don't see the shell game, huh?

It sounds looooovely on paper, only problem I have is that it just doesn't work. Didn't work for Hoover, didn't work for Reagan and not for the Bush clowns either.

[Lucky... 0]

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Absolutely, we can trust corporations with our very lives. How do you explain corpoarte failures like Enron, Worldcom, United, etc............?

Any dumbass who had all their money in Enron or Worldcom deserves to be broke. You will not find any Financial Advisor who would recommend that type of idiotic investment strategy. Why do you see such a problem with allowing a greater tax ceiling which would allow people to bail out of a failing SS System? Unless you actually think the money is going to be there when you retire.

Don't you understand that what happened to Worldcom and Enron is going to happen to your SS?

Uh, Many large corps, United and Enron for 2, had a policy that the little people couldn't sell their stocks within their 401K's. The after the stock dropped to a buck a share they could. SO it's not a matter of smart inversting.

Social security will be funded one way or another. As fucked as this country is, they will take care of their elderly.

[Lucky... 0]

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>Suggestions?

Easy. Fewer optional wars. Cut the Iraq war and you can immediately cut everyone's taxes by $1500 a year, average. (Or make up that amount of the deficit.)

Want to make this happen? Support a balanced-budget amendment. The reason the budget is in the mess it is now is that people are dumb, and believe politicians when they say they will cut taxes, give them free stuff and not run up the budget. By making it very clear that some new cool war is going to cost THEM, personally, $1500, a lot of people will turn from chickenhawks into doves overnight. People might not support that latest new bridge-to-nowhere if they realize that THEY will have to pay for it by next year at the latest. (Of course they will have to in the end no matter what, but by making it immediate they will think a lot harder about it.)

Yep, and most people don't understand what damage the debt is doing; they think it's a ghost number. Try traveling overseas and see how far your Confederate Dollar goes.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Cutting taxes is nice. But the way to cut taxes is to CUT THE FUCKING BUDGET. Taxes are not intended to incentivize or disincentivize businesses. They are to support the government. Want lower taxes? Make a smaller government. Want higher taxes? Have a few unneeded wars, open a few new government agencies, and vote a few pay raises in for Congress.

Driving the debt to ever-higher record numbers is a very very very bad idea, and is about as irresponsible as a man who spends as much as he can knowing he can always declare bankruptcy and have someone else pay his bills.

I couldn't agree more. Cut spending first, especially entitlement spending and then we can talk about how else to balance the budget and pay off the debt. The solution isn't to just raise taxes.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Try traveling overseas and see how far your Confederate Dollar goes.

Are there still places that take those?!? I've got a trunk full. Would love to turn them into beer.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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then we can talk about how else to balance the budget and pay off the debt.

Why not take our forces out of Germany and other similar countries? That would save some money, you'd hope.

We are all engines of karma

[Gravitymaster 0]

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And then the money gets redistributed and those recipients spend it, spurring the economy.

Nope. You raise my taxes, I'm going to look for ways to cut my expenses. Probably the first thing I will cut is employee bonus'. Then I will look for a cheaper and less attractive medical insurance plan with higher co-pays. Next would probably be the company 401K plan.

It's pretty obvious you have never owned a business. It's pretty laughable you think my examples are text book.

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Aside from textbook reasons why the economy should react how, show me in recent history where your plan works and mine doesn't.

17 1/2 years of Reagan/Bush/Bush has given us about 6 trillion$ in debt, while 8 years of CLinton rose the debt 1.5 T and the debt had actually turnbed horizontal and there was an annual surplus for the first time in 40 years; can you splain that? Can you splain why it is your textbook version works on your paper, but not in application?

It's been explained to you many times so I'm not going to waste my time.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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then we can talk about how else to balance the budget and pay off the debt.

Why not take our forces out of Germany and other similar countries? That would save some money, you'd hope.

Absolutely, then we can stop sending money to unappreciative 3 world dictatorships who hate America.

[EricTheRed 0]

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I'm going to look for ways to cut my expenses. Probably the first thing I will cut is employee bonus'. Then I will look for a cheaper and less attractive medical insurance plan with higher co-pays. Next would probably be the company 401K plan

Don't forget that labor follows the same supply/demand laws as everything else. You might not be able to hire qualified people if you take those actions (maybe you couild find a few mexicans to import though...)

Businesses pay salaries and benifits because the LABOR market demands that they do it. Not because they are really nice paople. If they CAN cut pay and benifits, it's already been done.

illegible usually

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I'm going to look for ways to cut my expenses. Probably the first thing I will cut is employee bonus'. Then I will look for a cheaper and less attractive medical insurance plan with higher co-pays. Next would probably be the company 401K plan

Don't forget that labor follows the same supply/demand laws as everything else. You might not be able to hire qualified people if you take those actions (maybe you couild find a few mexicans to import though...)

Businesses pay salaries and benifits because the LABOR market demands that they do it. Not because they are really nice paople. If they CAN cut pay and benifits, it's already been done.

Keep in mind, when you raise my taxes, you also raise the taxes of my competitors. So we all start cutting benefits. If his employees quit because they don't like it, they are going to find the same situation with me. That's if I'm even going to hire them once I find out why they quit their previous job.
Keep raising my taxes and I will start looking overseas to outsource some of our work.

Hmmm...I've heard I can hire a PhD in India for $10,000 per year. Suddenly that starts to look more attractive. So I fire 2 people making $35,000. They can't find a job with my competitor because he's outsourcing too, so they file for unemployment and live on that till it runs out. They default on their mortgage and the bank repo's their house etc......Now they are living on welfare and your taxes are raised to cover them and the other millions who are suffering the same fate.

Do you really want to go down that road? Keep raising taxes and thats what you will get. It's happening already it will continue to get worse.

[EricTheRed 0]

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Do you really want to go down that road?

Not quite so simply, but yes, I do.

In addition - in my world - I would tax companies that outsource at a higher rate than those that use domestic labor.

I would definately require some sort of payroll tax on all non-domestic payroll and not allow these expenses to be deducted from corporate profits for tax purposes.

illegible usually

[billvon 3,120]

>Keep in mind, when you raise my taxes, you also raise the taxes of
>my competitors. So we all start cutting benefits.

Nonsense. The exact same competitive pressures apply, taxes or no taxes - provided taxes are equal between companies. My company offers great benefits, and we pay taxes like everyone else.

>Hmmm...I've heard I can hire a PhD in India for $10,000 per year.
> Suddenly that starts to look more attractive. So I fire 2 people making
> $35,000.

That has nothing to do with taxes - as long as the taxes are fair (i.e. you're not taxed more than your competitor.) If you can do that and keep your product quality up, you will. Not because of taxes, but because if you don't, your competitor will hire those indians, sell their widget for 25% less than yours, and put you out of business. That's called capitalism.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Do you really want to go down that road?

Not quite so simply, but yes, I do.

In addition - in my world - I would tax companies that outsource at a higher rate than those that use domestic labor.

I would definately require some sort of payroll tax on all non-domestic payroll and not allow these expenses to be deducted from corporate profits for tax purposes.

Then I'd just contract with a with a Consultant or sub-contractor in another country so it wouldn't be shown on my books as payroll. Pass all the taxes you want. Business' will always find a way around it.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Keep in mind, when you raise my taxes, you also raise the taxes of
>my competitors. So we all start cutting benefits.

Nonsense. The exact same competitive pressures apply, taxes or no taxes - provided taxes are equal between companies. My company offers great benefits, and we pay taxes like everyone else.

>Hmmm...I've heard I can hire a PhD in India for $10,000 per year.
> Suddenly that starts to look more attractive. So I fire 2 people making
> $35,000.

That has nothing to do with taxes - as long as the taxes are fair (i.e. you're not taxed more than your competitor.) If you can do that and keep your product quality up, you will. Not because of taxes, but because if you don't, your competitor will hire those indians, sell their widget for 25% less than yours, and put you out of business. That's called capitalism.

If my competitors and I raise our prices because we have to pay more in taxes, then who is actually paying the increased taxes?

[billvon 3,120]

>If my competitors and I raise our prices because we have to pay
>more in taxes, then who is actually paying the increased taxes?

Your customers, which in most cases are the people of the US.

Don't tell me your point is that people end up paying for their government no matter how you spread the taxes around!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>If my competitors and I raise our prices because we have to pay
>more in taxes, then who is actually paying the increased taxes?

Your customers, which in most cases are the people of the US.

Don't tell me your point is that people end up paying for their government no matter how you spread the taxes around!

Why don't you go back and read the thread from the beginning. That's exactly the point I was making, beginning with Lucky.

[billvon 3,120]

>That's exactly the point I was making, beginning with Lucky.

OK, then perhaps I misunderstood your earlier comments. In the beginning, your point seemed to be that if you raise taxes on a corporation 15%, the prices of their products will go up 15%, which isn't true. But if your point is that we all end up paying taxes no matter who they are levied on, then I agree.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>That's exactly the point I was making, beginning with Lucky.

OK, then perhaps I misunderstood your earlier comments. In the beginning, your point seemed to be that if you raise taxes on a corporation 15%, the prices of their products will go up 15%, which isn't true. But if your point is that we all end up paying taxes no matter who they are levied on, then I agree.

My point is that if you raise taxes on Corps. they are going to do what it takes to stay in business. Whether it means raising their prices, outsourcing etc. And yes, increased business costs, including raising taxes is made up by the consumer as they are just added into the cost of doing business. Business taxes are just a hidden pass-thru tax in much the same way as gasoline taxes. The consumer is ultimately the one who pays.

[akarunway 1]

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Do you really want to go down that road?

Not quite so simply, but yes, I do.

In addition - in my world - I would tax companies that outsource at a higher rate than those that use domestic labor.

I would definately require some sort of payroll tax on all non-domestic payroll and not allow these expenses to be deducted from corporate profits for tax purposes.

Then I'd just contract with a with a Consultant or sub-contractor in another country so it wouldn't be shown on my books as payroll. Pass all the taxes you want. Business' will always find a way around it.

Isn't that TAX EVASION? I wonder what Ken Lay would do. Think I'll make that my new sig line________

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[mnealtx 0]

Nope, subcontracting a service != tax evasion

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Do you really want to go down that road?

Not quite so simply, but yes, I do.

In addition - in my world - I would tax companies that outsource at a higher rate than those that use domestic labor.

I would definately require some sort of payroll tax on all non-domestic payroll and not allow these expenses to be deducted from corporate profits for tax purposes.

Then I'd just contract with a with a Consultant or sub-contractor in another country so it wouldn't be shown on my books as payroll. Pass all the taxes you want. Business' will always find a way around it.

Isn't that TAX EVASION? I wonder what Ken Lay would do. Think I'll make that my new sig line________

Why would that be illegal? I'm not responsible for payment of taxes for a Consultant or sub-contractors employees. I could tell you about a dozen legal ways to avoid taxes. If the govt. continues to raise taxes, they will be used. Why do you think business' are subcontracting to foreign companies right now? Keep raising taxes and more jobs will leave the US. Then people will end up on welfare and those who have jobs will be forced to support them.

I love how those with no experience running a business are the ones who think raising corporate taxes to support out of control govt. spending has no backlash.

[TheAnvil 0]

One of the main problems with attempting to nail corporations with heavy taxes is that the corporation will simply relocate to another country or state where it is cheaper to do business. It's a multi-national environment these days for most major corporations, and if the cost of doing business in the U.S. becomes too great, other countries beckon. London is already a much better place to list than Wall Street in many regards. Who the hell would want to subject themselves to SOX unnecessarily?

Taxing corporations will not solve the national debt crisis. Controlling spending - and reforming our mandatory spending programs - is the solution to that. Our current revenues are higher than they've ever been.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,151]

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Do you really want to go down that road?

Not quite so simply, but yes, I do.

In addition - in my world - I would tax companies that outsource at a higher rate than those that use domestic labor.

I would definately require some sort of payroll tax on all non-domestic payroll and not allow these expenses to be deducted from corporate profits for tax purposes.

Then I'd just contract with a with a Consultant or sub-contractor in another country so it wouldn't be shown on my books as payroll. Pass all the taxes you want. Business' will always find a way around it.

Isn't that TAX EVASION? I wonder what Ken Lay would do. Think I'll make that my new sig line________

Why would that be illegal? I'm not responsible for payment of taxes for a Consultant or sub-contractors employees. I could tell you about a dozen legal ways to avoid taxes. If the govt. continues to raise taxes, they will be used. Why do you think business' are subcontracting to foreign companies right now? Keep raising taxes and more jobs will leave the US. Then people will end up on welfare and those who have jobs will be forced to support them.

I love how those with no experience running a business are the ones who think raising corporate taxes to support out of control govt. spending has no backlash.

You are correct. The right way to do it is to raise personal income tax on the wealthy, don't get involved in unnecessary wars on other continents, and don't spend more on defense than the next 8 nations combined.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.