Support for killing of civilians

[billvon 3,085]

Two sentences stood out in your reply:

>Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

>And if these people ARE Hezbollah supporters ? Well then - fuck 'em,
>kill 'em all before they can sprout another generation.

Is it possible that Israelis who have lost much more than you have to Palestinian aggression might feel that way too? Which would argue against your first statement. That particular rationale - that they voted for Hamas, they might therefore support Hezbollah, kill the fuckers - is being espoused more and more, and indeed is the subject of this thread.

If people who are not directly affected by this war can so easily get on the "kill all the people who supported Hezbollah/Hamas" (which covers most of the civilians in Palestinian lands) - I believe Israel can, too.

[billvon 3,085]

> Anyone have any idea what was the count of Lebonese civilians killed so far?

Latest I've seen, from the UK Independent:

508 Lebanese civilians
46 Hezbollah guerillas
26 Lebanese soldiers
36 Israeli soldiers
19 Israeli civilians

[falxori 0]

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Latest I've seen, from the UK Independent:

508 Lebanese civilians
46 Hezbollah guerillas
26 Lebanese soldiers
36 Israeli soldiers
19 Israeli civilians

although many civilians got killed too, these numbers are not accurate.
many more than 46 hezbollah fighters were killed. I don't know if the totals should be higher or if many of those counted as civilians are actually guerilla fighters (also a kind of civilian)

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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Deliberate is irrelevant

its very relevant.

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You argument could apply equally to a drunk driver who kills someone but didn't deliberately set out to do so. We don't give them a pass

again, not true. if you set out to kill someone with your car its 1st degree murder. if you get drunk and cause an accident, you may be guilty but not of the same crime.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

Well then maybe Israel should quit using these!!!!!

[warpedskydiver 0]

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> Anyone have any idea what was the count of Lebonese civilians killed so far?

Latest I've seen, from the UK Independent:

508 Lebanese civilians
46 Hezbollah guerillas
26 Lebanese soldiers
36 Israeli soldiers
19 Israeli civilians

Bill do you really think those are accurate numbers?...I don't for one minute.

I might also point out this is not an Israeli led genocide by a long shot.

Want to understand how the numbers game works?

Hezb'allah; we need to conceal our dead so we can claim that Israel is killing civilians, quick hold up that dead baby for photos by the media... for the next 30 minutes.

The rest of the gullible world then believes that Israel after all this military action are so inept and bloodthirsty that they can only kill innocent women and children and old people, and any military aged men who are killed are also innocent as well, that wasnt them holding that Anti-tank missile waiting to attack a patrol.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

Well then maybe Israel should quit using these!!!!!

would you rather that Israel surrender and then be exterminated?

[Guest]

From the Strategy Page:

An Embarrassment of Rockets
August 3, 2006: In the last 24 hours, Hizbollah fired a record 231 rockets at five Israeli towns, killing one Israeli (a civilian) and wounding 49. The Hizbollah rocket campaign against Israel has been a colossal failure, and this is being noticed in the Arab world. So far, it appears that Hizbollah has to fire over a hundred rockets to kill one Israeli civilian. This is not impressive, especially when you consider that Hizbollah is trying to kill Israeli civilians. Many of the rocket warheads have been modified (with the addition of hundreds of small metal balls) to enhance their anti-personnel effect.

The Hizbollah problem is that they are firing unguided rockets at a handful of targets (residential areas) within 20 kilometers (the range of their 122mm rocket) of the border. These rockets will only hit something if you fire a lot of them (several dozen is best) and aim them properly. But the Hizbollah rocket teams, operating at night, and under constant threat of discovery by Israeli aircraft and UAVs above, must move quickly. This apparently means that careful placement of the launchers is not a high priority. That can be seen by the increasing number of rockets landing in unoccupied areas. On some days, the Hizbollah rockets don't kill or wound anyone inside Israel.

Meanwhile, the Israelis, using guided weapons (missiles and smart bombs), are trying to avoid civilian casualties. They have a more difficult time of it, because nearly all their bombs and missiles hit what they are aimed at. Still, that has resulted in one dead civilian for every two or three bombs and missiles used. That's an unprecedented reduction in "collateral damage." But it isn't getting reported that way. And when one Israeli bomb apparently killed over fifty civilians, the Arab world cried "war crime." However, when Arabs were asked how they would respond to a similar hit on Israeli civilians, they believed that would be a "great victory." Same attitude was seen back in World War II, when, early in the war, German and British bombers were hitting each other's civilians.

For many Arabs, and their Western supporters, objectivity has been tossed aside, and reality twisted to conform to more popular views. Israel was attacked by a terrorist group, whose ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel and establishment of a worldwide religious dictatorship. Yet many see Israel as the aggressor, for defending itself too vigorously. As a democracy, Israel is responding to its public opinion, which is solidly behind the response to Hizbollah aggression.

This is very much an Information War, where keeping facts to yourself is a matter of life and death. Hizbollah can only make vague assertions that it has not been hurt. To provide any accurate information would only aid the Israelis. Same thing on the other side. Although, as a democracy, with a free press, the Israelis can't manage the news as well as Hizbollah, the Israeli military does keep details of what they are doing secret. This prevents Hizbollah from knowing any more about what tactics and techniques the Israelis are using.

That said, the Israelis appear to be approaching the destruction of Hizbollah in a methodical fashion. The first two weeks were spent hitting Hizbollah targets that were obvious, and some non-obvious ones obtained from agents on the ground or within Hizbollah. While these air attacks appeared to hit things that all Lebanese used, like highway overpasses and bridges,. on closer examination, the bombs were placed where they would do temporary damage (just taking down some of the roadbed), rather than much longer term, and expensive to repair, damage (to main supports). This detail was noticed by many Lebanese.

The campaign against the Hizbollah rockets proceeds on several levels at once. When rocket storage facilities are found, they are attacked quickly, before the rockets can be launched. Many of the rockets were stored under residences, schools and mosques. The Hizbollah plan was to have launch teams that could quickly take out the rockets, set them up in launchers, and fire them. Since firing the rockets would give away the position to the Israelis, Hizbollah learned not to try and use the same position twice. If all the rockets in a storage area could not be fired, then the unfired ones had to be moved.

Israel has hundreds of aircraft, UAVs and helicopters equipped with night vision sensors, and capable to patrolling the roads and hills along the border. The Israelis tried to take advantage of the size and range characteristics of the Hizbollah rockets. The most common rocket, the 122mm one, weighs 150 pounds and is nine feet long. But its range is only twenty kilometers. Since most of northern Israel is sparsely populated, you have to launch the 122mm rockets within a few kilometers of the border to have any chance of hitting anything. But any vehicle moving on the road, that looked like it could carry these rockets, was subject to attack. The Israeli night stalking tactics appear to have put the Hizbollah launch teams under a lot of pressure. Once rockets were out in the open and being set up, they were vulnerable to attack. Some of these launch sites were hit before the rockets could be sent on their way. This was obvious, because, first, there was an explosion, then secondary explosions and some rockets flying off in various directions. The Israelis learned that hitting the launch sites would catch rockets that had not launched, or others that could not be moved away yet.

Death from above was a bigger problem for the larger rockets, that could reach deeper into Israel. These rockets had the range, but they were still unguided. You needed a special launcher, and some time to get the rockets lined up just so, in order to hit a large town or city 50-70 kilometers inside Israel. Few of these have been launched, especially after the first two weeks. Even larger rockets, that can reach Tev Aviv, make an even more distinctive sight at night, to Israeli sensors. Several of these very large rockets have already been caught in the open, and destroyed. Neither side is saying how many of these very large missiles there are left. But Hizbollah will continue trying to move them into position, and Israeli troops will continue trying to prevent that.

To that end, more and more Israeli ground troops have been going into southern Lebanon over the last two weeks. At first, the Israelis sent in small patrols of very highly trained troops. These were there, in part, to confirm intelligence (from air recon and agents) of exactly what Hizbollah had on the ground. This phase has apparently been completed, for there are now at least half a dozen Israeli infantry battalions roaming around southern Lebanon. There was also a raid, some 70 kilometers north of the border, where Hizbollah big shots, or one of the Israeli captives, was believed to be.

With more Israeli troops on the ground in Lebanon, expect more of these raids. That's because many of the Lebanese down south are Christians and Druze, who cooperated with the Israelis during the 18 year Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon (to prevent the rocket launches going on right now), and these people were not treated well by Hizbollah, when Hizbollah pushed aside Lebanese police and border guards, after the Israelis left. There's a lot of information to be obtained from these Lebanese, and a willingness to give it up.

Hizbollah has over a hundred bunkers throughout southern Lebanon. These will be taken out, one by one, using smart bombs or explosive charges. These bunkers are death traps for Hizbollah, although many of them have escape tunnels that may, or may not, work. Many of the Hizbollah fighters gunmen in the south are essentially on suicide missions. There are a limited number of these suicide fighters. While Hizbollah can get more volunteers, because of the war fever, you can't train the volunteers to be useful in a short time.

It's a war of attrition, where neither side is willing to reveal what their score is. Hizbollah believes time is on its side, but this appears to be more imaginary than real. The fact of the matter is that Hizbollah cannot win. Israel is fighting for its very existence, while Hizbollah is fighting to preserve a warlord army in a democracy that, so far, has avoided taking control of southern Lebanon for fear of starting another civil war. Hizbollah is a militant religious group subsidized by foreigners (Iran and Syria), that both Israelis and Lebanese want gone. By Hizbollah's twisted logic, they will have "won" if they still have any presence in Lebanon after this is all over. One outcome that is certain is that Hizbollah will have once more demonstrated that terrorism cannot destroy democracy, no matter how fashionable the terrorists have become among people who should know better.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians are cheering on Hizbollah, but otherwise left in the shadows because of a lack of media attention. Egypt is hosting negotiations to obtain the release of an Israeli soldier kidnapped by Hamas. The Palestinians are inclined to give up the Israeli soldier, in return for some kind of economic relief. Since Hamas took over in March, most foreign aid has stopped and the Palestinian economy is hurting.

All emphasis mine.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Hezb'allah; we need to conceal our dead so we can claim that Israel is killing civilians, quick hold up that dead baby for photos by the media... for the next 30 minutes.

Well if you don't like the pics of dead children in Qana then how about their names? Sorry, some adults included in this list.

The names of those confirmed killed from Lebanese Red Cross and Tyre hospital records are:


1. Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 55
2. Ibrahim Hashim, 65
3. Husna Hashim, 75
4. `Ali Ahmad Hashim, 3
5. `Abbas Ahmad Hashim, 9 months
6. Hura’ Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 12
7. Mahdi Mahmud Hashim, 68
8. Zahra Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 2
9. Ibrahim Ahmad Hashim, 7
10. Ja`far Mahmud Hashim, 10
11. Lina Muhammad Mahmud Shalhub, 30
12. Nabila `Ali Amin Shalhub, 40
13. `Ula Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 25
14. Khadija `Ali Yusif, 31
15. Taysir `Ali Shalhub, 39
16. Zaynab Muhammad `Ali Amin Shalhub, 6
17. Fatima Muhammad Hashim, 4
18. `Ali Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 17
19. Maryam Hassan Muhsin, 30
20. `Afaf al-Zabad, 45
21. Yahya Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 9
22. `Ali Muhammad Kassim Shalhub, 10
23. Yusif Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 6
24. Qassim Samih Shalhub, 9
25. Hussain Ahmad Hashim, 12
26. Qassim Muhammad Shalhub, 7
27. Raqita Mahmud Shalhub, 7
28. Rukaya Muhammad Hashim, unknown

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

Well then maybe Israel should quit using these!!!!!

would you rather that Israel surrender and then be exterminated?

Nope. I'd rather that they get back on their own land and THEN call for the UN to help protect their legal borders. This creation of buffer zone around around their illegally occupied territory is bullshit.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

Well then maybe Israel should quit using these!!!!!

would you rather that Israel surrender and then be exterminated?

Nope. I'd rather that they get back on their own land and THEN call for the UN to help protect their legal borders. This creation of buffer zone around around their illegally occupied territory is bullshit.

We both know how useless the UN is and it can stop nothing.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Wow how strange all the fighting age men aren't on the list, or there werent any men of that age at all?

Were they not hit because they were out fighting and launching rockets?, or were they killed and went unreported?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Bill, I simply don't believe that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians.

Well then maybe Israel should quit using these!!!!!

would you rather that Israel surrender and then be exterminated?

Nope. I'd rather that they get back on their own land and THEN call for the UN to help protect their legal borders. This creation of buffer zone around around their illegally occupied territory is bullshit.

We both know how useless the UN is and it can stop nothing.

If the US wanted the UN to succeed, it would. Right now the US would rather send bombs to Israel and continue to enable the violence.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Wow how strange all the fighting age men aren't on the list, or there werent any men of that age at all?

Were they not hit because they were out fighting and launching rockets?, or were they killed and went unreported?

What difference does it make? Do you want the list of dead people from this SINGLE incident to be longer? Maybe they were out fighting. I know I would be if someone was bombing my neighborhood for weeks on end and then shooting up the vehicles full of people who were trying to evacuate. Maybe they were hiding away from their family because the Israeli (Destruction) Force considers all fighting age men as viable targets. Regardless, that list of dead people is good enough for me to call it pretty fucked up.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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1. Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 55
2. Ibrahim Hashim, 65
3. Husna Hashim, 75
4. `Ali Ahmad Hashim, 3
5. `Abbas Ahmad Hashim, 9 months
6. Hura’ Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 12
7. Mahdi Mahmud Hashim, 68
8. Zahra Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 2
9. Ibrahim Ahmad Hashim, 7
10. Ja`far Mahmud Hashim, 10
11. Lina Muhammad Mahmud Shalhub, 30
12. Nabila `Ali Amin Shalhub, 40
13. `Ula Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 25
14. Khadija `Ali Yusif, 31
15. Taysir `Ali Shalhub, 39
16. Zaynab Muhammad `Ali Amin Shalhub, 6
17. Fatima Muhammad Hashim, 4
18. `Ali Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 17
19. Maryam Hassan Muhsin, 30
20. `Afaf al-Zabad, 45
21. Yahya Muhammad Qassim Shalhub, 9
22. `Ali Muhammad Kassim Shalhub, 10
23. Yusif Ahmad Mahmud Shalhub, 6
24. Qassim Samih Shalhub, 9
25. Hussain Ahmad Hashim, 12
26. Qassim Muhammad Shalhub, 7
27. Raqita Mahmud Shalhub, 7
28. Rukaya Muhammad Hashim, unknown

First, it is a hospital and red cross. Concievably, many there might be young or old. That is the way hospitals often work.

In any case, 11 out of 28 are "older." Out of those 11, I would say that 8 are of fighting age. I have highlighted them for you. We could quibble over the 40, 39, and 45 year old, but I think they could still fight.

With 8 men, that is over 28% of the list are of "fighting age." With 5 men, it is 17%. How many would have to be of "fighting age" for you to consider it a proper "demographic?"

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Wow how strange all the fighting age men aren't on the list, or there werent any men of that age at all?

Were they not hit because they were out fighting and launching rockets?, or were they killed and went unreported?

What difference does it make? Do you want the list of dead people from this SINGLE incident to be longer? Maybe they were out fighting. I know I would be if someone was bombing my neighborhood for weeks on end and then shooting up the vehicles full of people who were trying to evacuate. Maybe they were hiding away from their family because the Israeli (Destruction) Force considers all fighting age men as viable targets. Regardless, that list of dead people is good enough for me to call it pretty fucked up.

I think you may be failing to see my point, where are all the men? if any place in nearly any city in the world is devastated you would find a normal percentage of each of the age/gender groups.

In the list you provided there is clearly one demographic missing.

Unless you are saying that these men, instead of being the same as any other man on the planet, chose to leave their families, instead of staying at home to care for their welfare.

Be analytical, treat news reports and all info as if it were an intelligence excersise.

Try and think as either side would, and how they would operate, and you may find something closer to the truth.

[Guest]

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Wow how strange all the fighting age men aren't on the list, or there werent any men of that age at all?

Were they not hit because they were out fighting and launching rockets?, or were they killed and went unreported?

Hizbollah has been making civilians remain (at gunpoint) in areas where they were firing rockets in hopes that the Israelis would kill a lot of them. Looks like it worked out.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[warpedskydiver 0]

Yep

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Yep

And neatly avoiding the argument about demographics at hospitals.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I think you may be failing to see my point, where are all the men? if any place in nearly any city in the world is devastated you would find a normal percentage of each of the age/gender groups.
In the list you provided there is clearly one demographic missing.

See GTA's post.


Unless you are saying that these men, instead of being the same as any other man on the planet, chose to leave their families, instead of staying at home to care for their welfare.

I did say that was a possibility. If IDF is targeting all men of your chosen demographic then would it not be safer for your family if you were not standing right next to them?

Be analytical, treat news reports and all info as if it were an intelligence excersise.

Try and think as either side would, and how they would operate, and you may find something closer to the truth.

(blink...blink) (insert Looney Tunes sound effect)

[warpedskydiver 0]

Whatever, at least I did not reply with a smart ass comment on the topic.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Hizbollah has been making civilians remain (at gunpoint) in areas where they were firing rockets in hopes that the Israelis would kill a lot of them. Looks like it worked out.
mh

Ooooo...this sounds evil. Got a source or is this just feel good stuff to transfer the blame back to Hizbollah? I'm only asking because instead of just saying "ditto" I'm treating this as an intelligence gathering exercise.

[nathaniel 0]

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Hezb'allah; we need to conceal our dead so we can claim that Israel is killing civilians, quick hold up that dead baby for photos by the media... for the next 30 minutes.

Even on NPR reporters have said that Hezbollah is kicking out newsmedia that ask the wrong questions.

I don't think anyone should believe the lebanon / hezbollah numbers for a minute.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Whatever, at least I did not reply with a smart ass comment on the topic.

Sorry, but what you suggest that I do is what I do.

[warpedskydiver 0]

k