Understanding Israel....

[vortexring 0]

Earlier this month I'd asked questions over the ancient dislike of Jews. Regarding this, and everything happening recently in the Middle East, have a read of this:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

The part to read is dated on the 26th of July; "Israel is our frontline whether we like it or not."

>Israel is the most important foreign policy issue of our time. It also divides opinion at home, in a way which is often slightly disturbing. Yet it is a matter where strong passions are generally matched by weak understanding and limited knowledge. I thought it would be worthwhile to post some thoughts about it which I hope will help understanding of the crisis. <

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

>Bravo! Israel is indeed our front line, and it is shouldering a responsibility that we should also be involved in. Too bad Lebanon couldn't destroy Hezbullah, but they couldn't. Or didn't have the will. So somebody has to.

Just as an aside, I was struck by the startling difference between participants in the Muslim Israel hate-a-thon in London last week, with screams of threats and violence, an Israeli depicted as a pig (I am looking forward to reading of the carrier of this poster being arrested for incitement to racial hatred),the faces twisted with venom and loathing, shrouded women screaming and what was visible of their faces contorted with fury; and a very, very heavy police presence.

And the 7,500 who gathered a couple of days later to support Israel. Well-dressed, polite people, smiling, waving pro-Israeli flags and posters in a non-threatening manner, good-humoured laughter, no one calling for the death of Muslims, no insulting posters promising desruction of anyone. A little boy waving an Israeli flag being carried on his grandfather's shoulders. No death threats. Just a flag.

And, most telling of all, a very low, almost non-existent, police presence for these 7,500 people. The police know who they can count on to police themselves and behave in a civilised manner. <

A posting from "Verity"

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

>I recall reading an article which described the response of President Nixon, following a telephone conversation he had just had with someone about the politics in the Middle East at that time, after he had been asked by one of his aides about his beliefs as to the long-term future for Israel. Nixon said nothing but simply clenched his hand into a fist with his thumb sticking up in the air. He raised his hand slowly then, after rotating it 180 degrees, brought it swifty down.

I, personally, hope Israel survives, prospers and has a long term future. Closer to home, away from the skewed reasoning many in the West use when assessing the region, I have never understood antisemitism and never will. Having long standing near neighbours who are Jewish, where I live on the Wirral, I know that they are popular people throughout the local area. The fact that they are Jewish is, I am certain, completely irrelevant to all. Culturally they are essentially as English as I am, and the very thought that because I attend a local Anglican church and they a synagogue in Liverpool should ever make a difference to our lives as members of the local community would be absurd.

This is not the simplistic gibberish of political correctness, much of which is truly sinister and very hypocritical as far as meaningless bigotry is concerned. It is common sense.

You interestingly focus upon the influence of the media and their lack of neutrality in relation to the question of Israel.

You say when commenting up the nurturing of peoples negative beliefs about Israel:

"They pick them up, as they pick up other fashions, from what they hear around them, from the prejudices of the media, which become their prejudices by a subtle process. These, by the way, don't take the form of the BBC correspondent saying "Israel wickedly bombed civilian targets last night". You only catch it on the edge of a remark. The reporters themselves often don't know they are doing it. It is their unconscious choice of verbs and nouns, their tone of voice, the selection of pictures and the attitudes to spokesmen that you have to watch".

Perhaps because I, and many other people I know as pro-Western, white, heterosexual males are used to reading and listening to, not only the shrewd and scornful shadow that much of the television and press manage to cast over us as the prime targets of their left-wing PC venom, whatever the subject matter, but also, quite frequently, very direct expressions of undisguised loathingly - this allows many people to be one step ahead of the wily propoganda you describe. I often anticipate it before I see or hear it. When the BBC were recently covering the seeminly innocuous events of a flower show they managed to slip in footage of two male presenters huddled tightly together on a tiny bench in a temporary garden and, along with openly gay innuendo, commenting upon the possible therapeutic value of the garden for 'male impotence and frigidity'. All part of, as you describe, "the subtle process".

And, as you suggest, many are unconsciously tainted by it.


Posted by: Peter Charnley. | 26 July 2006 at 09:05 PM <

Right, enough, I'm replying to my own posts nowbut I feel that gives a reasonable view on things.....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

>A nicely controversial article, but only because it is so selective of the facts. The state of Israel was founded as the result of violence and acts of terrorism and assassination perpetrated on Britain. Selectively mentioning al Husseini's overtures to Nazi Germany can easily be countered by equivalent moves by the Stern Gang (Lehi) who in 1941 offered to take Nazi Germany's side in return for expelling the British from Mandate Palestine. Stern and Lehi extremist views are the founding fathers of current Israeli ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

What an absurd notion that anyone has a 'moral debt' to pay to a country or even a people. The corollary to that quaint notion is that the German people and all the children and grand-children of WWII Nazis should be treated with some equivalent vilification. We don't, we look to the future. The war's over, they don't gas Jews any more, but today Israel continues to bomb 1000s of defenceless civilians - women and children in their homes. Leave the historical atrocities to one side - lets deal with ones happening right now!

Posted by: Godfrey | 30 July 2006 at 11:10 AM <

I think these articles help make some valid points, and hopefully provide an informative read on recent Middle East issues, rather than previous BS that has recently been written.

My opinion on the matter? They're all a bunch of c**ts

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[beowulf 1]

wow nice one person thread going. Have you convinced your self your right?

[vortexring 0]

>I think these articles help make some valid points, and hopefully provide an informative read on recent Middle East issues, rather than previous BS that has recently been written.<

See above - fair enough comment though. SC is usually quiet interesting but sometimes dissolves into a childish tit for tat. Which although can be interesting in itself, it takes away an element of what the posts are all about.

I, as an example, never lose my temper and rant, or slag people off....

Ultimately this little forum can be educational too - I try and post things regarding current affairs as it's interesting to get peoples varying opinions - hence all the above posts regarding Israel. Hopefully people can read them, & understand the situation a bit better........

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[beowulf 1]

I have read a lot of that information else where. My opinion differs from yours.

[vortexring 0]

What, Peter Hitchens writes articles for American newspapers?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[beowulf 1]

No what I meant is alot of the history has been written about by other people. The history of Palestine area during the Bitish Mandate, Zionism and their push for a Jewish National Homeland.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

And the 7,500 who gathered a couple of days later to support Israel. Well-dressed, polite people, smiling, waving pro-Israeli flags and posters in a non-threatening manner, good-humoured laughter, no one calling for the death of Muslims, no insulting posters promising desruction of anyone. A little boy waving an Israeli flag being carried on his grandfather's shoulders. No death threats. Just a flag.

One was a protest rally, the other was a support rally.

They are different animals.

[vortexring 0]

They certainly are.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'