Pharmaceutical Co.'s and doctors

[akarunway 1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/business/28lunch.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5059&en=3e4aaf4f902d2f1c&ex=1154750400&partner=AOL Who thinks this is proper? No wonder I don't go see doctors and/or take their drugs. EXCEPT when I femur in. LOL The Oxycontin was good

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[jakee 1,596]

Lunch. Y'know how if you read or say a word over and over it starts to sound really weird? Lunch. Freaky word.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Zipp0 1]

This is nothing, compared to what they did just a few years aog.

I have several good friends who are drug reps. One practice that they stopped a few years back was called 'gas and go'. The docs would pull in to a gas station, and the rep would pitch them on his drug as they got a free fill up of their Hummer.

Loys of shady stuff still happens in this arena....


Zippo

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Nightingale 0]

I'm really glad that my doctor gets drug samples. She gives them to her patients (often an entire prescription's worth!) when she knows we can't afford the prescription, if the insurance won't approve it, or if she knows our lives are insanely busy, just to make things easier on us. Antibiotics and my stomach don't get along well, so when she wants me to take something different (like those new 1 day or 5 day doses), she'll give me one to try before I pick up the prescription, so if it upsets my stomach, I can just call her and have her change the prescription rather than paying for one that I can't use and then having to pay for another one that I can.

I don't care if a drug rep might be buying her lunch to get her to listen to him talk about his drug. I know her well enough that I'm not the slightest bit worried that a free lunch would influence the care she gave her patients. She'll give the patient the best prescription for that patient. If it happens to be something she's got samples of, she'll give the patient the samples (actually taking money away from the drug companies, because that person isn't buying a prescription).

If a pharmaceutical company buying your doctor lunch concerns you, you need to find a new doctor.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I'm really glad that my doctor gets drug samples. She gives them to her patients (often an entire prescription's worth!) when she knows we can't afford the prescription, if the insurance won't approve it, or if she knows our lives are insanely busy, just to make things easier on us. Antibiotics and my stomach don't get along well, so when she wants me to take something different (like those new 1 day or 5 day doses), she'll give me one to try before I pick up the prescription, so if it upsets my stomach, I can just call her and have her change the prescription rather than paying for one that I can't use and then having to pay for another one that I can.

I don't care if a drug rep might be buying her lunch to get her to listen to him talk about his drug. I know her well enough that I'm not the slightest bit worried that a free lunch would influence the care she gave her patients. She'll give the patient the best prescription for that patient. If it happens to be something she's got samples of, she'll give the patient the samples (actually taking money away from the drug companies, because that person isn't buying a prescription).

If a pharmaceutical company buying your doctor lunch concerns you, you need to find a new doctor.

Does that also go with expenses paid vacations to myrtle beach to play golf?

I think on one end you have a salesperson buying lunch, no biggie there but then you have trips and etc. that is not OK.

My SO says where she works in ICU the salesmen get shown the door, gifts are not allowed.

[jakee 1,596]

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Does that also go with expenses paid vacations to myrtle beach to play golf?

I think on one end you have a salesperson buying lunch, no biggie there but then you have trips and etc. that is not OK.

The article states that free lunches became common after the expenses paid trips were banned.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I don't care if a drug rep might be buying her lunch to get her to listen to him talk about his drug.

What if the lunch is in the Rainbow Room and your doctor doesn't even live in NY?

There are many different lunches....from your local branded restaurant, to high end culinary experiences worth hunderds if not thousands....

[Nightingale 0]

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I don't care if a drug rep might be buying her lunch to get her to listen to him talk about his drug.

What if the lunch is in the Rainbow Room and your doctor doesn't even live in NY?

There are many different lunches....from your local branded restaurant, to high end culinary experiences worth hunderds if not thousands....

Again, if a pharmaceutical company buying your doctor lunch concerns you, you need to find a new doctor. If the doctor's care is influenced by who buys them what, the problem lies with the doctor, not the purchaser.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Again, if a pharmaceutical company buying your doctor lunch concerns you, you need to find a new doctor. If the doctor's care is influenced by who buys them what, the problem lies with the doctor, not the purchaser.

Lunch doesn't concern me at all.

However a thousand dollar lunch because the doctor has prescribed Prozac more than 500 times this month does concern me.

[masterrig 1]

It may or may not be 'proper' but, it's been going on for years. In one way or another, this type thing can be found in probably every phaze of the business world. Be it the medical field or recruiting high school kids for various colleges sports teams.


Chuck

[Nightingale 0]

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Again, if a pharmaceutical company buying your doctor lunch concerns you, you need to find a new doctor. If the doctor's care is influenced by who buys them what, the problem lies with the doctor, not the purchaser.

Lunch doesn't concern me at all.

However a thousand dollar lunch because the doctor has prescribed Prozac more than 500 times this month does concern me.

And if it concerns you that maybe your doctor prescribed prozac more often than required by his patients, then you're worried about your doctor's ethics. If 500 people needed prozac and the drug company wants to buy him lunch, so what? It doesn't make a difference, and an ethical doctor would do what's right for their patients, whether or not it comes with a free lunch. If a physican can be bribed by a drug company into doing something that is not in the best interest of his patients, he should lose his license.

Business lunches paid for by the party who wants a chance to talk to someone about their product aren't uncommon, and neither is giving away samples as a way to introduce potential customers to the product.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And if it concerns you that maybe your doctor prescribed prozac more often than required by his patients, then you're worried about your doctor's ethics. If 500 people needed prozac and the drug company wants to buy him lunch, so what? It doesn't make a difference, and an ethical doctor would do what's right for their patients, whether or not it comes with a free lunch. If a physican can be bribed by a drug company into doing something that is not in the best interest of his patients, he should lose his license.

After spending the amount of money most doctors have spent to become doctors, I have less faith in their oath and more faith in their desire to make the money back.

I have always wondered why north-american doctors are so quick to write prescriptions, rather than truly trying to find the underlying problem. The difference I have noticed between european doctors and north-american doctors is that in Europe more time was spent in trying to find the problem as opposed to just treating the symptoms.

I wonder if the "lunches" are more expensive and abundent in north-america.

Try not paying your Doctor's or dentist bills and see how long they stay "ethical".

People put too much trust in their doctors. When wa sthe last time the majority of people asked why a Dr prescribed a certain brand name and not another brand name of the same drug? Most people wouldn't even know that they could. If you think doctors and pharmaceutical companies don't take advantage of that, you are kidding yourself....

[Nightingale 0]

You won't find "another brand name of the same drug." You'll find a brand name (Zantac) and a generic (Ranitidine). If there's a generic available, pharmacies will usually give that to you unless you ask for the brand name.

If you're thinking of different drugs that are used to treat the same condition, for example:
Zantac
Prevacid
Prilosec
Nexium
Aciphex
all used to treat acid reflux, but some work better for certain people than others do, and often, it's just trial and error to find one that works.

I don't know if most doctors aren't like this, but mine has always been very open with me about what is being prescribed and why, or why she isn't giving a prescription (virus, etc).

First, my doctor gave me prilosec, because that's what she had samples of. Didn't work well, so we tried samples of nexium (different, a bit stronger). Then we tried Prevacid, because that's what my insurance would cover. Didn't work well and made me feel a bit sick. Aciphex was a pretty new drug and, according to research, seemed to work for people that the other drugs didn't. My insurance didn't want to cover it, so it was our last resort. It did seem to work, so we stuck with that one.

I've only ever gotten four kinds of antibiotics. Amoxicillin (generic), Cipro, Eurythromycin (generic), Azithromycin. My doc first gave me azithromycin because it was convenient (only 5 pills in 4 days) and she knows I have a problem remembering to take antibiotics four times a day. The azithromycin made me sick, so we went back to amoxicillin. Recently, Cipro has come out with a one-pill antibiotic which doesn't make me sick. I'm willing to pay extra for it at the pharmacy because I take it once and I'm done with it (but usually I don't even have to go to the pharmacy, because she'll just give me a free sample in the office). My doctor knows I like the convenience and that Cipro is about the only antibiotic that doesn't make me feel nauseous.

[TrophyHusband 0]

"I have always wondered why north-american doctors are so quick to write prescriptions, rather than truly trying to find the underlying problem."


you can thank the insurance companies for that. they will only pay for what they think should be done. one of the few things my wife likes about practicing in the military is that she can order any test she wants and find the root of the problem.


"After spending the amount of money most doctors have spent to become doctors, I have less faith in their oath and more faith in their desire to make the money back."


an unethical person is an unethical person no matter how much or how little they pay for their education, and besides, a few free lunches don't go very far when repaying student loans.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[kbordson 8]

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After spending the amount of money most doctors have spent to become doctors, I have less faith in their oath and more faith in their desire to make the money back.

I so incredibly take offense with that statement.
Why would you look at someones school debt to make assumptions on their character?! Why think "He/She owes a lot of money so thus He/She must be corrupt." And does this bias only apply to Physicians? What about someone that went to Julliard and spent 24 thousand a year. Or how about a friend of mine who has multiple student loans but no degree because she couldn't decide on a major. Does she qualify for your contempt? Not all Dr.s spend the 4yrs of undergrad, 4 years of Medical School and then 3-7+yrs of residency just for the sake of making money. There are much easier ways to do that! You have typically replied very intelligently to other posts so I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the above was an off the cuff comment. But I still feel it was callous and incorrect.

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I have always wondered why north-american doctors are so quick to write prescriptions, rather than truly trying to find the underlying problem. The difference I have noticed between european doctors and north-american doctors is that in Europe more time was spent in trying to find the problem as opposed to just treating the symptoms.

Actually... you're a bit off base here too. Many medical schools are now teaching a more holistic view of medicine. And... if you want a physician that was trained to focus on that, then the Osteopathic view of medicine might be more in line with your beliefs. In the US there are two types of "Dr."s: Allopathic (MDs) and Osteopathic (DOs). Both have exact same practice rights and same basic education. DOs tend to focus more on the whole person mentality though and tend to go into more primary care fields (general practicioners, internal medicine, family practice) But that being said, many of the Allopathic schools are teaching holistic care as well. The "enemy," if you must find one, is the limit of time. If you need to see so many patients in such a time... then it's most convient to treat the problem that brought you in that visit.

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Try not paying your Doctor's or dentist bills and see how long they stay "ethical".

The only reason we charged anyone in Guatemala was because the local provider wanted the people to have some ownership to their care. If they truly couldn't pay... they weren't turned away.

Now in the US... there's

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People put too much trust in their doctors. When wa sthe last time the majority of people asked why a Dr prescribed a certain brand name and not another brand name of the same drug? Most people wouldn't even know that they could. If you think doctors and pharmaceutical companies don't take advantage of that, you are kidding yourself....

Or are you just assuming that all dr's are [url "http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/w/wicked22494/nogooddeed1201474.html"> wicked cuz they are trying to help others....


edit to add.... and as far as the free lunches go - I haven't started in my practice yet, so I don't know how that will all work, but when I was a nurse and the reps came to the hospital, I honestly valued the opportunity to learn about the new advances. Knowing what the new drugs are is not a bad thing. But, that's not to say that the older medicines like penicillins and aspirin won't still be used.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I so incredibly take offense with that statement.
Why would you look at someones school debt to make assumptions on their character?! Why think "He/She owes a lot of money so thus He/She must be corrupt." And does this bias only apply to Physicians?

Nope, but it does happen quite a bit. Up in Canada we notice it quite frequently. Couple of examples: They get educated and trained in Canada (cheaper) but quickly find a job in the US because....they can make more money. (same goes for nurses).

Example number 2: It is next to impossible to get doctors to go to remote areas of Canada. One of the main reasons....yup you guessed it, they don't make as much money.....I don't blame them for it, just get sick and tired when I hear the holier than thou comments. I grew up around hospitals and doctors and it was incredible to see what pharmaceutical companies were giving away as incentives.

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Actually... you're a bit off base here too. Many medical schools are now teaching a more holistic view of medicine.

Emphasis mine. Happy to hear they are NOW doing that. Certainly hasn't always been like that.

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The "enemy," if you must find one, is the limit of time. If you need to see so many patients in such a time... then it's most convient to treat the problem that brought you in that visit.

Right, regardless of whether long term it might be better to look a little deeper for the patient....there is a reason hospitals like to see a fast flow of patients through their doors.....more patients in a day is more money made. Hospitals are a business in the end.

[rehmwa 2]

Sounds like you have issues with "canadian doctors"

Frankly, I doubt they are any different than doctors around the world. Some are greedy, some aren't, etc.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Sounds like you have issues with "canadian doctors"

nope brought it up as an example.

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Frankly, I doubt they are any different than doctors around the world. Some are greedy, some aren't, etc.

In a way they tend to be "greedy" by necessity, since they are well into debt.

[kbordson 8]

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Nope, but it does happen quite a bit. Up in Canada we notice it quite frequently. Couple of examples: They get educated and trained in Canada (cheaper) but quickly find a job in the US because....they can make more money. (same goes for nurses).

Example number 2: It is next to impossible to get doctors to go to remote areas of Canada. One of the main reasons....yup you guessed it, they don't make as much money.....I don't blame them for it, just get sick and tired when I hear the holier than thou comments. I grew up around hospitals and doctors and it was incredible to see what pharmaceutical companies were giving away as incentives.

Again, I have to make some corrections. The biggest offers on contracts that I had was from the remote areas. If you agree to go to the middle of nowhere and committ to a certain time... big money there. But big cities, tend to make less but more resources and better support. So my choice was not about the money at all.

I think you just might be too suspicious of doctors. Especially since you made no comment on the comparison of other fields with high debts.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I think you just might be too suspicious of doctors. Especially since you made no comment on the comparison of other fields with high debts.

Actually I did. I said I agreed that it happens in those fields as well...

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The biggest offers on contracts that I had was from the remote areas. If you agree to go to the middle of nowhere and committ to a certain time... big money there.

Absolutely, cause the need is the greatest there. I didn't think the oath spoke about best lifestyle, I am pretty sure the ethical thing to do would be to locate in an area where the need is the greatest, not where the lifestyle might be better suited to your personal taste. Plus, less lucrative sales visits in remote areas....

[peregrinerose 0]

I'm not sure why you are so pissed at doctors in general. Like every profession, there are good ones and less than ethical ones. Every doc has their own practice philosophy... give drugs vs. find the problem and go from there, for example.

The important part that you, and far too many other people, are missing is that doctors are on your pay roll, not the other way around. You have the right to interview your doctor and chose the one who's practice philosophy best matches your health care goals. If you believe your doc to be unethical, fire them and hire a new one.

About the drug companies... I quite happily meet with drug reps and take the free drugs. I give them only to patients with no insurance. If they want to buy me lunch, great... but I also refuse to do lunch alone... they want me for lunch, they have to buy the whole office lunch, not just me Does it influence my prescribing habits? Nope. I'm pretty blunt. All of the reps I deal with, both drug and contact lens, know exactly what I do and don't prescribe and why. All the free lunch in the world won't change that.

The only way they can influence my prescribing pattern is with samples and uninsured patients. Even then, I let the patient know that I prefer drug X, but it's $100 for a 5mL bottle. However, I have drug y, which may take a little longer to work, or may sting a little bit more, but I have a sample I can give them. The patient makes the choice.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Nice to see you being one of the good ones. I am not pissed against Doctors in general. I just don't believe that they are any more ethical than the local plumber. Oath or no oath.

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The important part that you, and far too many other people, are missing is that doctors are on your pay roll, not the other way around. You have the right to interview your doctor and chose the one who's practice philosophy best matches your health care goals. If you believe your doc to be unethical, fire them and hire a new one.

The important part that you are missing is that all the Canadian doctors are in the US making more money. Hence, I could go shopping for a doctor, however the first available appointment for a family physician in my area is roughly 19 months from now. What do you suggest I do when I don't like his ethics? Wait 19 more months?

[peregrinerose 0]

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Nice to see you being one of the good ones. I am not pissed against Doctors in general. I just don't believe that they are any more ethical than the local plumber. Oath or no oath.

I agree. Lack of ethics is in any business. The title "Doctor" certainly doesn't mean perfection or sainthood.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[kallend 2,151]

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Nice to see you being one of the good ones. I am not pissed against Doctors in general. I just don't believe that they are any more ethical than the local plumber. Oath or no oath.

I agree. Lack of ethics is in any business. The title "Doctor" certainly doesn't mean perfection or sainthood.

No kidding. My GF got a wasp sting a month back, and after 2 days it didn't seem to be getting better so she went to the local clinic. Less than 5 minutes with the MD resulted in a "facility" bill of over $300, a doctor's bill also over $300, and a $50 bill for "follow up care". We have no idea what the follow-up care was, since there was no follow up.


F^&king crooks!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

An hourly rate of $7,800. What could possibly be wrong with that?