gjhdiver 0 #1 July 25, 2006 One of the arguments used to try to weaken the separation of church and state is usually that the founders of the USA wanted a Christian form of government. It's one of the more pervasive myths, and it's time that it was laid to rest. Before the devout in here start complaining that they are beibng picked on again, try to remember that the following is not a repudiation of their faith (I'll do that in other posts ) but a nail in coffin of those who would remove the establisment clause. MYTH : The US was founded on Christian principles. TRUTH: This is incorrect. The Constitution never once mentions a deity, because the Founding Fathers wanted to keep their new country "religion-neutral." Our Founding Fathers were an eclectic collection of Atheists, Deists, Christians, Freemasons and Agnostics. George Washington, the Father of our country, and John Adams (Second President of the USA) CLEARLY stated in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion. George Washington rarely attended church and instead followed a popular 18th century philosophy called Deism;a Star Wars-esque philosophy that believed in a cosmic energy or large universal "Force." The dictionary says that Deism is "a system of thought advocating natural religion based on human reason rather than revelation," that had nothing to do with Christian principles. James Madison, the original mastermind of the Constitution, was an Atheist to the core who loved skewering Christianity. In 1785 he wrote, "What have been Christianity's fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution". If I'd posted that myself, I would be roundly called a bigot. However, it happens to be very erudite and concise. Thomas Jefferson, who sat down and authored The Declaration of Independence, rarely missed an opportunity to laugh at Christianity. In a letter to John Adams in 1823, he wrote: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." More ammo: In 1814, Thomas Jefferson wrote about the Bible's Old and New Testaments, "The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful -- evidence that parts have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. In fact, it was President Jefferson himself who first wrote (to a Baptist church group in 1802), "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State." Therefore, when Jefferson talked about Nature God,the Creator and divine Providence in the Declaration that he wrote, he was being a hippie and referring to a general cosmic energy-- not the Christian God. America is not a Christian nation. Period. Our Constitution derived from the post-Christian Enlightenment values of reason and truth...never from the paranoid yammerings of that otherwise compassionate cult leader who died in the Middle Eastern desert 2000 years ago. Now, can we just accept everyone to the table ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #2 July 25, 2006 Quote..never from the paranoid yammerings of that otherwise compassionate cult leader who died in the Middle Eastern desert 2000 years ago. "paranoid"?? how was Christ "paranoid"??? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #3 July 25, 2006 Hey now, if SC has taught me anything it's that all the 'good' values of modern western society (but not those 'bad' Euro liberal values) are based on Christian tradition. Because y'know, until the bible no-one even considered it might be wrong to kill, steal or commit adultery. For real. Since we have Moses and Jesus to thank for giving us morality then if America was founded on moral principals it was, of course, founded on Christian principles. QED. Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #4 July 25, 2006 > how was Christ "paranoid"??? Uh - he thought people were trying to kill him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #5 July 25, 2006 it's not paranoid if people actually ARE trying to kill you. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #6 July 25, 2006 QuoteHey now, if SC has taught me anything it's that all the 'good' values of modern western society (but not those 'bad' Euro liberal values) are based on Christian tradition. SC usually seems to say just the opposite. We've got a lot more ranting atheists here than ranting Christians. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #7 July 25, 2006 >MYTH : The US was founded on Christian principles. >TRUTH: This is incorrect. Not really. Most of the Founding Fathers _were_ christian, and they did bring many of their principles into the creation of the US. You are correct, though, in that they went to great lengths to NOT endorse any one religion. Many people living in the colonies came there to escape religious oppression, and had no desire to bring back an oppressive religious government. It's clear from reading the works of the founding fathers that they wanted a "free market" of religion, one where people could freely choose which they wanted to believe in. Some books I can recommend on this subject: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Eidsmoe The Godless Constitution by Kramnick The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America by Lambert Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brierebecca 0 #8 July 25, 2006 QuoteThe Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America by Lambert This is an INCREDIBLE book. That is all. Brie"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #9 July 25, 2006 > MYTH : The US was founded on Christian principles. And to think, all this time I thought they opened with prayer during the writting of the Declaration of Independence. Me beginning to think you is trying to start a Myth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #10 July 25, 2006 everything about christian this or christian that is based one the original false assumption- jesus was a man of 'divine origin', thus all succeeding assumptions are false.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #11 July 25, 2006 Has anyone noticed how sexy my long JACKASS ears are as of late? Hot damn am I one sexy biatch....er...I mean JACKASS. Granted, I can't yodel worth a damn, but when it comes to being a JACKASS, I'm the MAN....er...I mean JACKASS Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists as well that was quite interesting. I'll have to read one of those books, Bill. Gareth, I don't think many people would want the establishment clause removed, though I do believe that the ACLU and friends have gone overboard to the point of absurdity in Christian-bashing via the courts. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #12 July 25, 2006 >everything about christian this or christian that is based one the > original false assumption- jesus was a man of 'divine origin', thus > all succeeding assumptions are false. But you're talking about Jesus, so your post (by your definition) is false. So that means that everything about "christian this or christian that" is . . . true? It's so confusing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
