steveorino 7 #176 August 8, 2006 Quote That's not evidence of anything except that there was a creation. It does not follow that there had to be a creator ... By definition is something is "created" there is a creator. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #177 August 8, 2006 QuoteThat's not evidence of anything except that there was a creation. It does not follow that there had to be a creator, and even if there were a creator, there is no evidence that she was the god of your religion. Blind man. Keep it up. After all, if you admit that there was a Creator, you'd also have to admit that He made YOU, and the logical conclusion to that would be that you are accountable to Him. For you, that is totally out of the question. I mean, you wouldn't want your Creator interfering with your plans, would you? Unfortunately for you, we are all accountable to God who made us, whether we acknowledge Him as such, or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #178 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteHello? You don't see a difference between "br0k3n's actions" and the actions of those he cited? "br0k3n's actions"= good. Cited actions= bad. That is exactly what I was pointing out. If you believe in free will then you should accept that Brokens good actions are his own. If you believe in a divine plan and/or predestination then bad actions are part of that plan. Many Christians are "Armenian" not "Calvinist" and thereby believe in God giving all men free will. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #179 August 8, 2006 QuoteMany Christians are "Armenian" not "Calvinist" and thereby believe in God giving all men free will. Mockingbird is being logically inconsistent by claiming that all good actions are part of Gods predetermined plan but all bad actions are a result of free will. The two do not mix and match.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #180 August 8, 2006 QuoteIf you believe in free will then you should accept that Brokens good actions are his own. If you believe in a divine plan and/or predestination then bad actions are part of that plan. I believe in both. God having a "divine plan" doesn't mean that people are His robots. They do as they please/think best, or whatever suits them and/or their purposes. God weaves all the good and the bad into the tapestry of His plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #181 August 8, 2006 Oops, my bad, I agree. Men can choose to do good or evil. I believe God created them with that choice. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #182 August 8, 2006 No. It is not inconsistent. It is biblical. See last post. (If you find the Bible "inconsistent", you can chalk that up to your own finiteness... like we all must do from time to time. It will become clear eventually.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #183 August 8, 2006 QuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #184 August 8, 2006 QuoteGod having a "divine plan" doesn't mean that people are His robots. They do as they please/think best, or whatever suits them and/or their purposes. God weaves all the good and the bad into the tapestry of His plan. There is no way you can make that statement gel with what you said earlier.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #185 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! The problem is not the bible. The problem is your poor understanding. What worsens your understanding of the bible is your wish not to understand it. If you understood it, it might make you uncomfortable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #186 August 8, 2006 QuoteThe problem is not the bible. The problem is your poor understanding. What worsens your understanding of the bible is your wish not to understand it. If you understood it, it might make you uncomfortable. The inverse of that statement is also applicable To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #187 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteGod having a "divine plan" doesn't mean that people are His robots. They do as they please/think best, or whatever suits them and/or their purposes. God weaves all the good and the bad into the tapestry of His plan. There is no way you can make that statement gel with what you said earlier. I don't have to make it "gel." Truth stands on its own, and God causing EVERYTHING to work together to accomplish His purposes is truth. Ever read the the story of Joseph in Genesis (chapters 37-50)? Great story! You should read it. Joseph's brothers did some really horrible things to him, and through an interesting series of events, he ended up saving a nation. At the conclusion, he tells his brothers: "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Really good story that illustrates God's hand in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #188 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! That does have to be one of the funniest lines ever written in any of these religious threads. (Sorry, Mockingbird.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #189 August 8, 2006 QuoteIf you understood it, it might make you uncomfortable. I was raised catholic. Went to a private catholic school until I was 17 run by a priest. I think I have learned enough to make my own mind about that book. Its cool you want to live your life based on yours and a church's opinion of it. But dont claim it to be the truth.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #190 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! Isn't it awesome? Since The Thread has been mostly on sabbatical, this thing has become my new favorite. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #191 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! The problem is not the bible. The problem is your poor understanding. What worsens your understanding of the bible is your wish not to understand it. If you understood it, it might make you uncomfortable. Arrogant replies are what makes this thread so totally freaking fantastic! Yay!! QuoteEver read the the story of Joseph in Genesis (chapters 37-50)? Great story! You should read it. Joseph's brothers did some really horrible things to him, and through an interesting series of events, he ended up saving a nation. At the conclusion, he tells his brothers: "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Really good story that illustrates God's hand in the world. Were you not JUST arguing that God does not do evil things in the world? And yet, in your example here, God MEANT for the evil to befall Joseph. Oh but it was for good! What this says to me is that God WILL do evil to individuals if it will result in good for others later. So back to those starving children in Africa? When is that good going to start happening? Sorry, you slipped up with this one.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #192 August 8, 2006 >But dont claim it to be the truth. Well, to be fair, a religion only has to be true to its believers to be valid. I don't see anything wrong with claiming that one's religion is true; indeed, it would seem to be logical that one would believe in the religion one finds most 'true.' The only problem comes about when you claim everyone else's is false - and then try to do something about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #193 August 8, 2006 QuoteThe inverse of that statement is also applicable Right... You're more comfortable with NOT understanding the bible. Hey, that IS the inverse.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #194 August 8, 2006 Quoteto be valid Thats my problem Bill. I really dont care what someone think is true or valid in his or her religion. But this is about telling others that something is The Truth.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #195 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt is not inconsistent. It is biblical. I love this thread! That does have to be one of the funniest lines ever written in any of these religious threads. (Sorry, Mockingbird.) I understand why it might cause a smile, especially when taken out of the context, which people are so fond of doing these days if it will get them a laugh or help them not to take the issue seriously. So, no offense taken. We think we have a problem understanding the bible, or thinking it's incoherent, when the real problem is our own self-inflicted ignorance.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #196 August 8, 2006 Oh ho! You were raised catholic. You've had your share of discomfort, eh? The funny thing is that the discomfort we anticipate feeling if we "let" God into our lives, is a mirage. He is actually extremely loving, kind, and liberating!! Not to say that He doesn't expect His children to do difficult things--- things that sometimes don't come naturally for human beings--- but He gives us the grace and love to do them. Quite different from what a catholic schoolmaster might require... unless he's Bing Crosby. By the way, I don't stand behind a church's authority or claims as you seemed to imply... I'm not a church member, and haven't been for 17 years.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #197 August 8, 2006 QuoteWere you not JUST arguing that God does not do evil things in the world? And yet, in your example here, God MEANT for the evil to befall Joseph. Oh but it was for good! What this says to me is that God WILL do evil to individuals if it will result in good for others later. So back to those starving children in Africa? When is that good going to start happening? Sorry, you slipped up with this one. Silly boy. Like Mockingbird just told me, it doesn't have to make sense, its the TRUTH.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #198 August 8, 2006 The only reason I can think of to take the bible, or god, or any type of religion seriously is because it affects a large majority of the people I share the planet with (including most of my friends and family). And therefore, it indirectly affects me. But for the most part, I tend to make light of it because that makes it easier to deal with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #199 August 8, 2006 QuoteQuite different from what a catholic schoolmaster might require... There you go assuming a bunch of stuff again...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #200 August 8, 2006 QuoteWere you not JUST arguing that God does not do evil things in the world? And yet, in your example here, God MEANT for the evil to befall Joseph. Oh but it was for good! What this says to me is that God WILL do evil to individuals if it will result in good for others later. So back to those starving children in Africa? When is that good going to start happening? Sorry, you slipped up with this one. No slip at all on my part. You are reading into the story by twisting words and projecting evil motives onto God. You are wrong. But as usual, you want to find a loophole that you think will save you. I'm not playing your deceptive little word games, Vercetti. Haven't we been over this before?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
