JackC 0 #126 August 7, 2006 QuoteThis is very well put and illustrates my own definition of faith: "the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence." ie wishfull thinking. QuoteSkydivers exercise FAITH, based on adequate evidence, that they will survive every time they jump. Rubbish. That is not faith, thousands of uneventful jumps are undertaken each year. This is sufficient evidence to suggest that there is a good chance my canopy will open when requested. But we all know perfectly well what the odds are for each jump. We know and accept the risks and that there is a chance that sooner or later you or someone you know will run out of luck. It's not faith, it's fact. QuoteWhat's truly ironic is that an educator can't read a simple paragraph and understand its meaning, or that a scientist can be closed-minded in refusing to acknowedge evidence. (And please spare me the "WHAT evidence?" game--- if you're unaware of the evidence, it's because you don't want to see it.) I understood the passage the same way Kallend did. Is it possible that it's you who are looking at it through god goggles and not understanding it? Here's another one for you open minded christians out there. Are you able to consider that the possibility that perhaps the bible is not the word of god but rather the word of misguided/duped/manipulative/lying (delete as applicable) man? QuoteThe Bible nowhere leaves the impression that our faith is based on nothing. It is always based on either eyewitness testimony) or the trustworthiness of the object of one's faith. The bible is not eyewitness testimony (it was written many years after the event, then copied, translated, edited, copied and translated again), it's hearsay and conjecture. And a source which claims it's own trustworthyness is nothing of the sort. The bible wouldn't stand up in court of law as evidence of anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #127 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteIrony score 9.6 What's truly ironic is that an educator can't read a simple paragraph and understand its meaning, or that a scientist can be closed-minded in refusing to acknowedge evidence. (And please spare me the "WHAT evidence?" game--- if you're unaware of the evidence, it's because you don't want to see it.) If adequate evidence existed you wouldn't need faith. You do need faith because adequate evidence does NOT exist, and your Bible quotes are contradictory to the evidence that does exist.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #128 August 7, 2006 Quote5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old. Nope, not me. I have no reason to "search" out that which is false. I don't know how old the earth is, but I refer you to the scripture that says "A day with the Lord is like a thousand years." Maybe each day was actually a thousand years our time, when the earth was created. This little trick of making up whatever numbers are needed is one of my favorites of the apologetic excuses from the believers. FUNDAMENTALIST: God created the Earth in 7 days. GEOLOGIST: Actually, evidence from a plethora of observations and repeatable experiments VERY solidly indicates the Earth to be about 5 billion years old. FUNDAMENTALIST: Well, what if each day for God equals a thousand years for humans? Yeah that's it, a conversion factor of 365,000 to 1 makes your evidence fit my desired truth. GEOLOGIST: Um, I said 5 BILLION, with a B; as in a really really long time. Maybe using scientific notation would help you grasp the enormity of the numbers we're dealing with here. FUNDAMENTALIST: Notation schmotation, no need for science like stuff. The conversion factor is now 1 day for God equals 830,000,000 years for ordinary humans. Yeah, that's the ticket. Do you have anything more to add, or can I leave the conversion factor at 830,000,000 to 1; because we can change it if any more pesky evidence comes along. If you are not searching for that which is false, you can not be actively searching out that which is true. But that is dogma for you. It's not about searching at all - it's about being convinced there is nothing more you need to know. That's why the name used by the Discovery Institute is such a fucking joke. They have no intent on discovering anything. (The institute is the primary political entity behind the push to get creationism/ID into science classes)." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #129 August 7, 2006 QuoteI admit there's a lot of basic misconceptions in the list, but I think the emphasis here is on the Fundamentalist bit. Not all Christians are Fundamentalists. I would agree with that in general. There are some smart people who believe some ridiculous things. I won't say all fundamentalists are totally wacked, but anyone who believes the Earth to be 6 or 8 or 10K years old is open to criticism of their credibility. I mean, if you can buy into that kind of tripe, what other goofy notions might you hold? Do I need to watch out for myself in your presence?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #130 August 7, 2006 QuoteI invite you to come to NYC and "run through the streets, proclaiming Jesus is Lord" as you said. I guarantee you that you will be completely ignored by pretty much everyone and left in peace to proclaim whatever you like, as loud as you like. Actually, in my visits to NYC, I've seen quite a bit of it. Mostly gets treated as background noise." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #131 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteZoroastrianism is the name of the religion and philosophy based on the teachings ascribed to the prophet Zoroaster (Zarathushtra, Zartosht). Mazdaism is the name of the religion that acknowledges the divine authority of Ahura Mazda, proclaimed by Zoroaster to be the one uncreated Creator of all (God). That's all fine and good, but does their heaven have a Stripper Factory and a Beer Volcano? That is so cool. Didn't know they had FSM tees. I like the design-your-own options. Gonna arder one tonight: Front: FSM NOT ON DUTY (visual of FSM having a martini) Back: SAVE YOUR OWN ASS (visual of FSM with malfunction passing thru 1500')" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #132 August 7, 2006 QuoteI would be very interested to get Windcatchers, Pajaritos, and the rest of the god squads comments on it, however I feel as with every other piece of fact that dents thier armor of belief, the christian way is to "ignore" it, and hope that it goes away.... You forgot about the part where when pressed on something like a salient point or bit of actual evidence that contradicts their belief, they go off on some God-loves-me-and-everybody style of tangent; like this: "He doesn't bow to me; I bow to Him. The time will come when every knee will bow to Him and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord-- some in anger, tho' forced to recognize His sovereignty over all creation-- and some in joyful fulfillment." There's really no debate here at all. Someone with a certain point of view cites some contradiction or evidence, then someone from the other point of view says something like 'But Jesus loves me.' It is entertaining though." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #133 August 7, 2006 I love The Onion headline: GOD ANSWERS LITTLE BOYS PRAYERS Article subtitle: God says "No."" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #134 August 7, 2006 QuoteHow do you get over the problem of infinite regression? Who designed the designer, and the designers designer... ad infinitum? If you say god is the uncaused cause, why can't the universe be uncaused? And finally, how does the god hypothesis offer any worthwhile explanation for anything? All it does is postulate what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and warns against even trying because you can't possibly understand. It's a hypothesis that revels in its own ignorance. What use is that? Believers do not respond to this level of logic, and least not in a logical manner. It backs them into an inecsapable corner, after which you usually get a God-loves-me-and-everybody style of response. Using God to explain the unexplainable back when most things were unexplainable was relatively harmless. This God-of-the-Gaps really started to fall apart though with the widespread application of the scientific method and people, even commoners to a great extent, actually discovering how the world works. This posed great problems for organized religions that had already claimed to have all the answers. They had to either modernize and build some flexibility into their processes, or stick to their principles of requiring blind faith and ignoring facts that contradict their stories. The chose the later, and the rest is history." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #135 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. How? Read the emphasis I placed in original statement. It is sufficient for my "belief." This is basically the I-can't-comprehend-it-any-other-way rationale. It is the safe place for those who either do not understand, even on a conceptual level, or do not want to hear about things like molecular biology, plate tectonics, the magnitude of times measured in billions of years, genetics and the whole natural selection thing, etc. It is so much easier to just chant." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #136 August 7, 2006 It is all based on astrology(astro-theology). everyone would do themselves, their children, and OUR planet a big favor by letting go of the lies the priesthood has fed them. FDR said "we have nothing to fear, but fear itself." The SYSTEM that you are slaves to is nothing but a fear factory. The Disney movie, Monsters, Inc. was created as an allegorical depiction of this fact. www.truthbeknown.com has irrefutable proof of this fact! vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&n=2&videoid=725402425we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #137 August 7, 2006 QuoteYou're missing my point. Some things cannot be proven to exist w/o an element of faith. How can I prove to my wife of 32 years I love her? I can offer "evidence" such as many years of faithfulness, expensive jewelry, etc, but she could explain all that away if she wanted to. Some where in the equation she has to accept in faith that I love her. To me there is a similarity with proving God exist. He can offer evidence (such as the order of the universe and fulfilled prophecies) but I have the choice to "write it off" or accept it. That is simply called faith. You are either kidding or not at all schooled in logic. The love you have for your wife is an emotion, an internal creation of your own making. There is no proof of it's existence or lack of existence. By definition, if it requires an element of faith, then you have not proven it exists. As someone already mentioned, there is a reason the burden of proof lies with the person claiming something exists. And there is no guarantee that because something exists, that we can prove it does. This is why science relies heavily on falsification as a concept. If something can not be falsified, then it is outside the realm of science. A fun example someone uses as a sig line: There are invisible elves living in my back yard. Prove there aren't. Same with the FSM." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #138 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteIrony score 9.6 What's truly ironic is that an educator can't read a simple paragraph and understand its meaning, or that a scientist can be closed-minded in refusing to acknowedge evidence. (And please spare me the "WHAT evidence?" game--- if you're unaware of the evidence, it's because you don't want to see it.) Please do not tease like that. What is it you have that you consider evidence. I am very curious about what it is, and even more curious at what logic you use to go from the evidence to anything even remotely resembling a proof." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #139 August 7, 2006 QuoteThe SYSTEM that you are slaves to is nothing but a fear factory. The Disney movie, Monsters, Inc. was created as an allegorical depiction of this fact. Holy shit, was that what I think it was? Did the hairy one have a light hearted moment and actually make a joke? My whole perception of the world has been shaken to the core!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #140 August 7, 2006 no joke jakee, its a statement from one of your countrymen. peace and love to allwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #141 August 7, 2006 Quoteby the way are you going head off to Africa to save the homeless with your bible quotes???? just wondering how its going.... I've calculated that since I suggested it you about 18720 children have died due to hunger...why doesnt God help them, why does he just leave to them die?????? How are you going to save yourself? QuoteJesus answered, it is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4 QuoteHe humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Deuteronomy 8:3 By the way, when are you heading off to Africa to save those people you know are going to die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #142 August 7, 2006 every time you post,paj, you prove the fact that religion is mind control. it is called THEURGYwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #143 August 7, 2006 QuoteAre you able to consider that the possibility that perhaps the bible is not the word of god but rather the word of misguided/duped/manipulative/lying (delete as applicable) man? Which one of the approximate 40 authors over the course of 1500 years was misguided, duped, manipulative, or lying? Were they all? - Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy (1400 B.C.) - Joshua: Joshua (1350 B.C.) - Samuel, Nathan, Gad: Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 - Samuel (1000 - 900 B.C.) - Jeremiah: 1 Kings, 2 Kings (600 B.C.) - Ezra: 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah (450 B.C.) - Mordecai: Esther (400 B.C.) - Moses: Job (1400 B.C.) - David + several others: Psalms (1000 - 400 B.C.) - Solomon: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon (900 B.C.) - Isaiah: Isaiah (700 B.C.) - Jeremiah: Jeremiah, Lamentations (600 B.C.) - Ezekiel: Ezekiel (550 B.C.) - Daniel: Daniel (550 B.C.) - Hosea: Hosea (750 B.C.) - Joel: Joel (850 B.C.) - Amos: Amos (750 B.C.) - Obadiah: Obadiah (600 B.C.) - Jonah: Jonah (700 B.C.) - Micah: Micah (700 B.C.) - Nahum: Nahum (650 B.C.) - Habakkuk: Habakkuk (600 B.C.) - Zephaniah: Zephaniah (650 B.C.) - Haggai: Haggai (520 B.C.) - Zechariah: Zechariah (500 B.C.) - Malachi: Malachi (430 B.C.) - Matthew: Matthew (55 A.D.) - Mark: John, Mark (50 A.D.) - Luke: Luke (60 A.D.) - John: John (90 A.D.) - Luke: Acts (65 A.D.) - Paul: Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon (50-70 A.D.) - Hebrews: Probably Paul, Luke, Barnabas, or Apollos (65 A.D.) - James: James (45 A.D.) - Peter: 1 Peter, 2 Peter (60 A.D.) - John: 1 John, 2 John, 3 John (90 A.D.) - Jude: Jude (60 A.D.) - John: Revelation (90 A.D.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #144 August 7, 2006 once again pajarito proves that religion is mind control. how convenient that he leaves out luke 19:27-kill all the unbelievers. this one "scripture makes christianity the bloodiest religion ever devised by manwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #145 August 7, 2006 Are there supposed to be three Johns, two Lukes and two Moses?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #146 August 7, 2006 The names on the left are authors: the names on right are books. According to tradition and fundamental theology, Luke wrote Luke and Acts, etc. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #147 August 7, 2006 Quoteonce again pajarito proves that religion is mind control. how convenient that he leaves out luke 19:27-kill all the unbelievers. this one "scripture makes christianity the bloodiest religion ever devised by man Once again, hairyjuan proves that the mind is a terrible thing to waste. Luke 19:27 comes from the Parable of the Ten Minas. No one verse alone should be used to derive a mindset. The thoughtful, wise, and prudent person will take context and intent into consideration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #148 August 7, 2006 none of what you believe about the bible is factual. open your eyes, pleasewe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #149 August 7, 2006 Quotenone of what you believe about the bible is factual. open your eyes, please Why do you care? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #150 August 7, 2006 QuoteWhy do you care? Could be that, considering it's something that we've fought (and still do to some degree) wars over, that we might want to make sure it's accurate To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
