Mockingbird 0 #101 August 5, 2006 QuoteOk so if all these starving millions in 3rd world countries were christians, then they would just need to pray for some food????? is that how it works???? Not necessarily. As I already said, according to Scripture God works in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, and because this is so, our best interests are always served... It's just that we often don't realize what is in our best interest. As for everyday needs, like food, here's what Christ said: Matthew 6:25-34 (Today's New International Version) 25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ? 28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #102 August 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteOk so if all these starving millions in 3rd world countries were christians, then they would just need to pray for some food????? is that how it works???? Not necessarily. As I already said, according to Scripture God works in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, and because this is so, our best interests are always served... It's just that we often don't realize what is in our best interest. As for everyday needs, like food, here's what Christ said: Matthew 6:25-34 (Today's New International Version) 25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ? 28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Wow, I wonder what God was distracted by while all those of children in Africa starved to death, since apparently he forgot to feed them as promised.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #103 August 5, 2006 Kallend, you don't understand what you read. How did you become an educator?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #104 August 6, 2006 QuoteYou're right, it is what I BELIEVE. Unlike the other poster who made an empirical statment that there is no proof God exists. Ermmm correct me if im wrong..... but there is NO evidence what so ever..... thats why its called "blind faith" 1. where is the holy grail? 2. where is the arc of the covenant??? 3. Noah arc perhaps???----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #105 August 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou're right, it is what I BELIEVE. Unlike the other poster who made an empirical statment that there is no proof God exists. Ermmm correct me if im wrong..... but there is NO evidence what so ever..... thats why its called "blind faith" 1. where is the holy grail? 2. where is the arc of the covenant??? 3. Noah arc perhaps??? I don't try to prove God. He doesn't need my help. 1. Holy grail is a legend, never mentioned in the Bible 2. The arc of the covenant disappears from scripture around the captivity of Judah by the Bablylonians. It was probably melted down. 3. Ararat? Perhaps??? What evidence can you give that God doesn't exist? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #106 August 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteOk so if all these starving millions in 3rd world countries were christians, then they would just need to pray for some food????? is that how it works???? Not necessarily. As I already said, according to Scripture God works in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, and because this is so, our best interests are always served... It's just that we often don't realize what is in our best interest. As for everyday needs, like food, here's what Christ said: Matthew 6:25-34 (Today's New International Version) 25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ? 28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Holy Crap batman....... clearly as you are blinkered to what is happening in the REAL world, I suggest this..... Book yourself on a flight to Africa and preach your little biblical passage to the mothers of the estimated 11 million children that die before they reach the age of 5 due to starvation.... Or perhaps preach it to the parents 16,000 children that die from hunger-related causes every day--one child every five seconds. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #107 August 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. How? Read the emphasis I placed in original statement. It is sufficient for my "belief." Only because you choose not to think about the logical fallacy in that belief. Where is the fallacy in believing the world is too orderly to be random? I think it it is a good and reasonable observation. Maybe you don't but I hardly see my belief that the order of the world dictates a divine creator as being illogical. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #108 August 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou're right, it is what I BELIEVE. Unlike the other poster who made an empirical statment that there is no proof God exists. Ermmm correct me if im wrong..... but there is NO evidence what so ever..... thats why its called "blind faith" 1. where is the holy grail? 2. where is the arc of the covenant??? 3. Noah arc perhaps??? I don't try to prove God. He doesn't need my help. 1. Holy grail is a legend, never mentioned in the Bible 2. The arc of the covenant disappears from scripture around the captivity of Judah by the Bablylonians. It was probably melted down. 3. Ararat? Perhaps??? What evidence can you give that God doesn't exist? I dont need to provide any evidence, the burden of proof is with you....----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #109 August 6, 2006 QuoteI dont need to provide any evidence, the burden of proof is with you.... Aw, go ahead, convince me. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #110 August 6, 2006 QuoteKallend, you don't understand what you read. How did you become an educator? could be that he understands what he reads better than most.. and enjoys mocking those who are less astute...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #111 August 6, 2006 Quote What evidence can you give that God doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that Odin doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that Thor doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that leprechauns doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that invisible pink unicorns doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that bigfoot doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that the medusa doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that flying teapots doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that the FSM doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that pegasus doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that dragons doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that kraken n doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that hotei doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that chupacabra doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that hathor doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that the holy snail doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that square circles doesn't exist? What evidence can you give that vampires don't exist? You are going to busy for a very very long time providing evidence for all the things that don't exist. That's why the burden of proof is set the way it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #112 August 6, 2006 You're missing my point. Some things cannot be proven to exist w/o an element of faith. How can I prove to my wife of 32 years I love her? I can offer "evidence" such as many years of faithfulness, expensive jewelry, etc, but she could explain all that away if she wanted to. Some where in the equation she has to accept in faith that I love her. To me there is a similarity with proving God exist. He can offer evidence (such as the order of the universe and fulfilled prophecies) but I have the choice to "write it off" or accept it. That is simply called faith. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #113 August 6, 2006 QuoteYou're missing my point. Some things cannot be proven to exist w/o an element of faith. How can I prove to my wife of 32 years I love her? I can offer "evidence" such as many years of faithfulness, expensive jewelry, etc, but she could explain all that away if she wanted to. Some where in the equation she has to accept in faith that I love her. To me there is a similarity with proving God exist. He can offer evidence (such as the order of the universe and fulfilled prophecies) but I have the choice to "write it off" or accept it. That is simply called faith. No, you're missing my point. The burden of proof is on you to prove your positive assertion, ie that something exists. It's not your wifes job to prove that you don't love her, it's your job to prove you do. If you say god exists and I don't believe you, it's not my job to prove you wrong, it's your job to prove you right. If you say you need faith, then your evidence is quite obviously lacking and you wont impress me. Faith is another way of saying "trust me". I find it difficult to trust in the existence of something for which there are no proven examples especially when that "thing" has contradictory and illogical properties. Having the capacity to take exceptional and illogical claims as being true on faith (by definition lacking sufficient supportive evidence) is a dangerous position to voluntarily be in IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #114 August 6, 2006 QuoteKallend, you don't understand what you read. How did you become an educator? Irony score 9.6... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #115 August 6, 2006 Just humor me if you will. Let's say I come to you as an agnostic. Can you prove to me with undeniable evidence that God does NOT exist? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #116 August 6, 2006 QuoteJust humor me if you will. Let's say I come to you as an agnostic. Can you prove to me with undeniable evidence that God does NOT exist? AS HAS BEEN STATED PREVIOUSLY, we don't prove negatives. The onus is on the believers to prove that gods exist, not the other way around. Otherwise YOU would have to prove that all the Hindu, Norse, Roman, Greek... gods, the Great Pumpkin and the FSM are non-existent, which neither you nor anyone else can do.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #117 August 6, 2006 I understand your position, but I guess if I was an agnostic, I'd walk away from our encounter as an agnostic still. You cannot prove to me your claim God does not exist. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #118 August 6, 2006 QuoteJust humor me if you will. Let's say I come to you as an agnostic. Can you prove to me with undeniable evidence that God does NOT exist? Why should I have to? The default position is to assume nothing exists until shown otherwise. I can probably demonstrate that buckets exist by showing you a bucket. If I wanted to demonstrate to you that pi mesons exist I would have a much harder job. But that's not the same as proving something doesn't exist. The only way I could do that is to show that some set of properties of this thing is inconsistent and cannot exist by definition. Like square circles or married bachelors. By definition a square cannot simultaneously be circular. One cannot be both married and a bachelor. For me the properties of the usual omnimax god qualify to put it in the same group of not possible things as a square circle. The only way you can get from not possible to possible is to relax some of the properties of the omnimax god and limit his abilities, in other words make him a lesser god. But can I prove that a god of sorts doesn't exist anywhere in the universe? Of course not, just like you can't prove that a giant purple box of used diapers isn't currently orbiting saturn. Failing to prove X does not exist is not the same as proving X exists and you know it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #119 August 6, 2006 QuoteI understand your position, but I guess if I was an agnostic, I'd walk away from our encounter as an agnostic still. You cannot prove to me your claim God does not exist. You cannot prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. Your position is a logical absurdity.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #120 August 6, 2006 THE BIBLE IS NO MORE THAN A MYTH, LIKE EVERY OTHER RELIGION. Here is why these people refuse to look beyond the myth that controls their minds: THEURGY! Theurgy involves incantation-the use of spells or verbal charms SPOKEN OR SUNG, leading to an altered state of consciousness. Used in a negative manner, incantation can lead the aspirant to a vitiated state of mindless somnolance, allowing a mountebank to impose his or her depraved will. Currently, we find this type of thought destroying incantation employed by religious extremeists of EVERY faith: the Orthodox Christian right encouraging its devotees to intone mantras of militaristic imperialism, while Muslim extremists mindlessly recite scriptural passages commanding a jihad against unbelievers. this was written by a fellow reformed 'fundamentalist' christian like me. his website is www.hermes-press.com He was the head of the artificial intelligence department at the U.S. Army War College. the attachment can be found atwww.christianism.comwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #121 August 7, 2006 every time you say anything about your"belief", you prove the point that RELIGION IS MIND CONTROL. here is why they cling to their foolish belief that the 'bible' is the word of god=THEURGY Theurgy involves incantation- the use of spells or verbal charms spoken or sung, leading to a state of mindless somnolance, allowing a mountebank to impose his or her depraved will. Currently, we find this type of thought destroying incantation employed by religious extremists of every faith: the Orthodox Christian right encouraging its devotees to intone mantras of militaristic imperialism, while Muslim extremists mindlessly recite scriptural passages commanding a jihad against unbelievers. this, written by a former 'fundamentalist christian' like myself. his website is www.hermes-press.com. the attachment is available from www.christianism.com[url]we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #122 August 7, 2006 QuoteYou're missing my point. Some things cannot be proven to exist w/o an element of faith. How can I prove to my wife of 32 years I love her? I can offer "evidence" such as many years of faithfulness, expensive jewelry, etc, but she could explain all that away if she wanted to. Some where in the equation she has to accept in faith that I love her. To me there is a similarity with proving God exist. He can offer evidence (such as the order of the universe and fulfilled prophecies) but I have the choice to "write it off" or accept it. That is simply called faith. This is very well put and illustrates my own definition of faith: "the assurance of the heart in the adequacy of the evidence." Skydivers exercise FAITH, based on adequate evidence, that they will survive every time they jump. For the "whuffos," NO amount of evidence will give them assurance. We are assured of and accept the evidence; they don't.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #123 August 7, 2006 QuoteIrony score 9.6 What's truly ironic is that an educator can't read a simple paragraph and understand its meaning, or that a scientist can be closed-minded in refusing to acknowedge evidence. (And please spare me the "WHAT evidence?" game--- if you're unaware of the evidence, it's because you don't want to see it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #124 August 7, 2006 QuoteErmmm correct me if im wrong..... but there is NO evidence what so ever..... thats why its called "blind faith" And who exactly calls it "blind faith"? Only those who refuse to look at or accept the evidence. The Bible nowhere leaves the impression that our faith is based on nothing. It is always based on either eyewitness testimony) or the trustworthiness of the object of one's faith.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #125 August 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteErmmm correct me if im wrong..... but there is NO evidence what so ever..... thats why its called "blind faith" And who exactly calls it "blind faith"? Only those who refuse to look at or accept the evidence. The Bible nowhere leaves the impression that our faith is based on nothing. It is always based on either eyewitness testimony) or the trustworthiness of the object of one's faith. WHAT EVIDENCE??? show me.... You tell me then, why is it called Faith where is the shining cross in the sky???? by the way are you going head off to Africa to save the homeless with your bible quotes???? just wondering how its going.... I've calculated that since I suggested it you about 18720 children have died due to hunger...why doesnt God help them, why does he just leave to them die??????----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
