br0k3n 0 #76 August 4, 2006 QuoteGOD works, and often works through prayer, but He acts in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, not ours (tho' always with our good in mind). MB you must be living in a fantasy world, “always with our good in mind” have you opened your eyes to what’s happening in the “real" world??????? Or is it just that the millions or people suffering and dieing all over the world today are just heathens????? WAKE UP……… ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #77 August 4, 2006 QuoteErmm well maybe, just maybe us "non" believers dont believe in any silly sky gods because.......... 1.There is absolutely no empirical or physical evidence what so ever for the existence of a God, or any God. While I believe you have the right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want, this is where I think your argument fails. I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. However, I do not believe I can completely comprehend him. IF there was a God who could speak and create the world into existent, I'd have to be pretty arrogant to believe i should be able to figure Him out 100% EDITED TO ADD While I consider myself a Christian (a follower of Jesus Christ) I do not consider myself a fundamentalist by any stretch. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #78 August 4, 2006 QuoteUmm - Jesus said so, according to Matthew, Mark and John. ... Jesus talked about prayer, yes. But whom was He addressing? Were His words meant to have direct relevance to everyone in the whole world, or just to the group or individuals He was speaking with? Sometimes there is a difference. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #79 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteGOD works, and often works through prayer, but He acts in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, not ours (tho' always with our good in mind). MB you must be living in a fantasy world, “always with our good in mind” have you opened your eyes to what’s happening in the “real" world??????? Or is it just that the millions or people suffering and dieing all over the world today are just heathens????? WAKE UP……… Whether they are heathens or not, I don't know. And frankly, I don't know how God responds to the prayers of heathens-- I mean, I don't know of any heathens who are praying, so how can we know how or if He responds to specific prayers by them? But I wasn't talking about the millions of people suffering and dying all over the world, broken-- I was talking about Christians specifically (by Christians I mean those who have been reconciled to God through Christ, and are now living in relationship with God), He acts in accordance with His wisdom and His purposes, and always has our good in mind. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #80 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteGOD works, and often works through prayer, but He acts in accordance with His wisdom and purposes, not ours (tho' always with our good in mind). MB you must be living in a fantasy world, “always with our good in mind” have you opened your eyes to what’s happening in the “real" world??????? Or is it just that the millions or people suffering and dieing all over the world today are just heathens????? WAKE UP……… Whether they are heathens or not, I don't know. And frankly, I don't know how God responds to the prayers of heathens-- I mean, I don't know of any heathens who are praying, so how can we know how or if He responds to specific prayers by them? But I wasn't talking about the millions of people suffering and dying all over the world, broken-- I was talking about Christians specifically (by Christians I mean those who have been reconciled to God through Christ, and are now living in relationship with God), He acts in accordance with His wisdom and His purposes, and always has our good in mind. Blue skies & happy knots ~Mockingbird "O, joy and rapture unforeseen, the clouded sky is now serene!" Ok so if all these starving millions in 3rd world countries were christians, then they would just need to pray for some food????? is that how it works????----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #81 August 4, 2006 Quote I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. How?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #82 August 4, 2006 QuoteWhile I believe you have the right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want, this is where I think your argument fails. I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. However, I do not believe I can completely comprehend him. IF there was a God who could speak and create the world into existent, I'd have to be pretty arrogant to believe i should be able to figure Him out 100% How do you get over the problem of infinite regression? Who designed the designer, and the designers designer... ad infinitum? If you say god is the uncaused cause, why can't the universe be uncaused? And finally, how does the god hypothesis offer any worthwhile explanation for anything? All it does is postulate what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and warns against even trying because you can't possibly understand. It's a hypothesis that revels in its own ignorance. What use is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #83 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteErmm well maybe, just maybe us "non" believers dont believe in any silly sky gods because.......... 1.There is absolutely no empirical or physical evidence what so ever for the existence of a God, or any God. While I believe you have the right to believe or disbelieve whatever you want, this is where I think your argument fails. I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. However, I do not believe I can completely comprehend him. IF there was a God who could speak and create the world into existent, I'd have to be pretty arrogant to believe i should be able to figure Him out 100% EDITED TO ADD While I consider myself a Christian (a follower of Jesus Christ) I do not consider myself a fundamentalist by any stretch. Sorry but that is still not evidence, that is just what you believe. And so the circular argument begins again.....Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #84 August 4, 2006 You're right, it is what I BELIEVE. Unlike the other poster who made an empirical statment that there is no proof God exists. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #85 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuote I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. How? Read the emphasis I placed in original statement. It is sufficient for my "belief." steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #86 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote I believe the order of the universe speaks of a master designer. How? Read the emphasis I placed in original statement. It is sufficient for my "belief." Only because you choose not to think about the logical fallacy in that belief.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #87 August 4, 2006 QuoteHow do you get over the problem of infinite regression? The problem of infinite regression does not lie with Creationists. QuoteWho designed the designer, and the designers designer... ad infinitum? God is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). QuoteIf you say god is the uncaused cause, why can't the universe be uncaused? Everything that has come into existence was brought into existence by something else. God did not “come into existence.” By definition, He has always existed. Alternatively, “dirt can’t just happen (e.g. Infinite Regression).” QuoteAnd finally, how does the god hypothesis offer any worthwhile explanation for anything? All it does is postulate what we are trying to explain. It postulates the difficult to explain, and warns against even trying because you can't possibly understand. It's a hypothesis that revels in its own ignorance. What use is that? It is wise to understand your limits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #88 August 4, 2006 >The problem of infinite regression does not lie with Creationists. You've just said it does. God has no cause or origin; he 'regresses infinitely' into the past. Scientists believe that things like dirt came from somewhere, and then discover how it came to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #89 August 4, 2006 QuoteQuote>The problem of infinite regression does not lie with Creationists. You've just said it does. God has no cause or origin; he 'regresses infinitely' into the past. Scientists believe that things like dirt came from somewhere, and then discover how it came to be. The following would be infinite regression with regard to God. QuoteWho designed the designer, and the designers designer... ad infinitum? That's not the case. Regressing infinitely into the past, as you said, doesn't refer to God. It refers to time. The design isn't the same as the designer. A painting is not the painter. A building is not the builder. The Creator is above his creation. He controls it. It does not control him nor are they equal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #90 August 4, 2006 >The Creator is above his creation. So since God created everything - time, space, logic, reason - none of them need apply to him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #91 August 4, 2006 Quote>The Creator is above his creation. So since God created everything - time, space, logic, reason - none of them need apply to him? Why would it? As C.S. Lewis said, "You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #92 August 4, 2006 >Why would it? I can understand why you believe it might not. But it makes all your arguing in favor of God unneccesarily verbose, doesn't it? After all, if you can answer any criticism with "reason doesn't apply, it's God" you could cut down on your typing significantly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #93 August 4, 2006 Quote>Why would it? I can understand why you believe it might not. But it makes all your arguing in favor of God unneccesarily verbose, doesn't it? After all, if you can answer any criticism with "reason doesn't apply, it's God" you could cut down on your typing significantly. But is that what The Thread would have wanted?Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #94 August 4, 2006 >But is that what The Thread would have wanted? I think The Thread would have been perfectly happy with a bunch of "rabbi walks into a bar" jokes and some pictures of christian boobies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #95 August 4, 2006 QuoteI can understand why you believe it might not. But it makes all your arguing in favor of God unneccesarily verbose, doesn't it? After all, if you can answer any criticism with "reason doesn't apply, it's God" you could cut down on your typing significantly. Reason does apply. He made it clear through the Bible that he wants us to reason. Our reason just isn’t always necessarily God’s reason. He created "your" ability to reason. His reason is part of himself and he's always existed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #96 August 5, 2006 Quote>The Creator is above his creation. So since God created everything - time, space, logic, reason - none of them need apply to him? IMHO - You are right, Bill, but too many of us on both sides of the spectrem want to put Him in a box, whether it be Bible, dogma, etc. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #97 August 5, 2006 I just know I'm going to be struck dead for saying this buuut, AMEN Bill!!!! I couldn't have said it better if I had stolen your words for my own.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #98 August 5, 2006 I have no objection to any one religion, but I Do have to say I'm sick and tired of christians Screaming how they're the abused and misunderstood minority.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #99 August 5, 2006 >Reason does apply. He made it clear through the Bible that he wants us >to reason. Our reason just isn’t always necessarily God’s reason. He >created "your" ability to reason. His reason is part of himself and he's >always existed. So we have a sort of "reason lite" that doesn't apply to him, which is effectively the same thing. Any discussion must end with "that's human reason; it doesn't apply to God." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #100 August 5, 2006 QuoteThe problem of infinite regression does not lie with Creationists. It does if you want to hold a self-consistent, logical position. Infinite regression is a logical consequence of "everything must have a maker". It's rediculous to bolt on the ad-hoc idea that it doesn't apply to god just because that's the only way you can escape from the conundrum. QuoteIt is wise to understand your limits. So basically you just roll over and accept that your position makes no sense but that's ok because god isn't bound by the rules of the universe (defined as everything that exists anywhere). I find it amazing that people actually believe this stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
