Educational level of US states

[lawrocket 3]

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Isn't it funny that those who are loudest in criticism of state schools are most convinced that someone brought up entirely by the state is so well equipped for our society.

Who is "well equipped" for out society? A person straight out of high school? Humbug. A person straight out of college? Bah humbug! A person working a minimum wage job? Um, no.

Nothing makes a person "well equipped" for society except experience. Being "well equipped" for society is like being "well equipped" for a successful skydive. Sure, it's nice to have good training to get started, but I've been trained. While I haven't jumped in three years, John, I have been through the course. 300 way HERE I COME!

Not quite. You start small in life and society. You don't just go big. We gotta pay our dues. Too many are unwilling to do that. Maybe that's what people aren't being prepared for - the idea that you're gonna have to suck it up for a while while you work your way up.

Education is a nice building block to equp someone for society. Think of it as a brick in a wall. It is but one.

Conversely, I find it interesting that the educated are the ones who are most convinced that an education is the most important thing to get ahead. I'd say something I've said often - nothing helps me in my career more than street smarts I developed.

Education is great, don't get me wrong. But education is the reason why a bum on the street has a higher net worth than I do right now.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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And you seem to be doing very well as I recall.

I started college at 17. There was no way in HELL I could've managed to deal with financial aid all on my own. My parents took care of it (and educated me about it along the way) until I finished my undergrad degree. They told me what to sign, and I read the forms and signed them. I didn't start navigating the financial aid system on my own until I started grad school, and it's a lot easier for grad students. They've usually got jobs, so they don't have to worry about additional loans to cover cost of living. Federal loans don't cover everything, and private loans take co-signers to get.

I got this feeling you could have done it on your own if that had been your only choice. People with the drive to succeed at something, usually find a way. Their determination often catches the eye of someone who decides to mentor them.

[billvon 3,114]

>There was no way in HELL I could've managed to deal with financial aid all on my own.

I was in the same boat. I got through college on a combination of small scholarships, financial aid, parent's help and working a lot of hours scraping plates and installing cable TV. I just didn't have my shit together enough at 17 years old to do all that on my own. Fortunately I had a lot of help from my parents.

[kallend 2,147]

Your personal anecdote is interesting but hardly relevant. Data from the US Census shows consistently, decade after decade, that education may be the best investment anyone can make in their children's lives in terms of $return on $invested. Why should the state not invest similarly in wards of the state?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

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I got this feeling you could have done it on your own if that had been your only choice.

LOL. You've got that wrong. I went to college because my parents TOLD me I was going to college. There was simply no discussion about it; it was just expected. I probably would've been a typical short-sighted teenager and dropped out or never started to begin with, and gotten a job and moved out. Or, like many of the students I saw who were on their own, realized I just couldn't compete with the students who didn't have to work to eat, and therefore had a lot more time to study and sleep.

I'm where I am now partially because of my own determination, but largely because I had parents that pushed me and supported me.

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People with the drive to succeed at something, usually find a way. Their determination often catches the eye of someone who decides to mentor them.

And what if they never encounter that mentor? Finding a mentor isn't something you can count on.

[lawrocket 3]

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Your personal anecdote is interesting but hardly relevant.

Perhaps. However, it may ALSO show there to be another line of thinking out there that perhaps you are not considering. While I realize that it is not and was not your intention, John, these are the comments that most of the people from my background view as the condescending "high horse" thoughts of someone who has no clue about life in their world. It so happens, John, that I agree with you. It also happens that I accept that these are the thoughts of a very large portion of people you are hoping to help.

The relevance of my anecdote is not seen by you - you haven't the experiences to fully grasp it. Ironically, part of the reason why I truly believe that these programs haven't worked over the past 30-40 years is that they have been created and managed by people who really lack an understanding of the differing culture.

Those of us who understand it know that it is what it is, right or wrong. It works for them - to an extent. I so happen to be one of the sell-outs, and I despise the culture of it. But I understand how they think the way they do. I accept that it's the way it is. They are fooling themselves, and our programs are showing them that it's okay to do that, since the government will pick up the slack.

Education? Their thought is, "Why?" You explain it to them and they say, "I ain't having none of that." They won't buy it because we are not to be trusted - especially someone like me who sold out instead of helping them. (By the way, I define a "sell-out" as anyone who is doing better than me who started with the same resources. They must have cheated)
11 days ago, you started this thread about scientists who are being ignored due to political pressures. The "religious right" was pretty heavily blamed. A great deal of science does not fit with their dogma. Much science is not matching political objectives. In a sense, what seems to simple to most of us is lost because they are coming from a different place. In their world, this science stuff is not really relevant - they've got what they grew up with to show them all they need.

Scientists in church used to be called "heretics." We see that those disadvantaged who do things the way you suggest are called "sell-outs." You've heard that term, John. You don't have reason to doubt its existence. What you lack is the experience and knowledge to know exactly what that term means.

Where I came from, you didn't need no education. Where I came from, you didn't see anybody making it with education. The folks you saw driving the cadillacs and wearing the gold were the drop-outs who found their own businesses.

Like science to the religious zealot, you can tell them all about the value of an education - most ain't buying it. College is where you go to get prepared for the pro draft. That's just the way it is. And I'll man up to admit that I don't know the solution.

John, you don't find my anecdote relevant. It's the same reason why evidence of evolution is irrelevant to an advocate of intelligent design - what the heck does that have to do with anything when we know Adam and Eve were the first people? So what about using experience and knowledge instead of education to get ahead? It's irrelevant - you know education is the key.

I know it's pretty important. I do not think it's the most important thing. If it was, there wouldn't be so many with college degrees having careers as low-wage barristas at Starbucks while Clem from Clovis, who dropped out of high school to work on his auto detailing business, has just purchased a new 2,500 square foot house due to his success.

Guess which one we saw more of in my old neighborhood, John? Until you realize the relevance of my statements, much in the same way that I openly acknowledge the truth of your statements, the results from these same ideas will stray further and further from the intended good.

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Why should the state not invest similarly in wards of the state?

Because by the time they are college aged, they should not be wards of the state anymore. We wouldn't look highly upon a 21 year-old mooching off of mom and dad, would we? Why should we make it an admirable goal if it were merely mooching off of Big Brother?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

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We wouldn't look highly upon a 21 year-old mooching off of mom and dad, would we? Why should we make it an admirable goal if it were merely mooching off of Big Brother?

Most 21 year old college students are still mooching off mom and dad. Heck, my parents are paying my rent at the moment, and I'm 27. (however, I'm stuck in a lease I can't afford because of a deal my dad made with me to stay put...I could afford a cheaper place on my own).

I was certainly mooching off my parents at age 20, when I was finishing college, and all my friends (a year older than I was because I skipped a grade) were certainly still mooching off their parents.

In college now, you either mooch off your parents to be able to afford to eat, borrow extra money (with a co-signer because you can't get a private loan without one if you're not working) to be able to afford to eat, or you work full time to be able to afford to eat. Example: When I was in school, student workers made $5 an hour, and most places nearby wouldn't hire students because they didn't want to work around school schedules.

A meal in the school cafeteria was $13.50 for dinner, and $8 for breakfast and lunch. That was $29.50 a day if you paid cash. Less if you were on a meal plan, but that had to be purchased all at once, up front.

So, those kids with student work jobs had to work 6 hours a day just to eat, unless they were mooching off mom and dad or had a car to go to the grocery store (or a few free hours to take the bus). But since we weren't allowed microwaves or refrigerators (old building: appliances like that blew the circuits), there wasn't much they could buy unless they wanted to live off dry cereal or granola bars.

The school itself had set things up in a way that there was no easy way for a student to work on campus and still eat, unless they had outside support. I know I was at a private school, but from what my brother tells me, CSUF wasn't much different. His assessment "sure, you can eat cheap, if you don't mind living on candy bars from the vending machines."

[kallend 2,147]

Data consistently show that education is maybe the best investment in the future that anyone can make. It is a good investment for parents (which is why they do it) and for society at large. Your ANECDOTES about Joe Schmoe and his detailing shop or kids that drop out do not affect that in ANY way, since they are included in the statistics already.

The data included in the first post of this thread showed very clearly that the wealth of the states correlate VERY WELL with the educational level of its residents.

States that choose to invest in their kids reap the benefits, even if their high income taxpayers resent every penny spent on educationg the poor.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A meal in the school cafeteria was $13.50 for dinner, and $8 for breakfast and lunch. That was $29.50 a day if you paid cash.

those are pretty fucked prices for cafeteria quality food. $900/month to eat? My rent plus food was less than that in school.

[lawrocket 3]

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A meal in the school cafeteria was $13.50 for dinner, and $8 for breakfast and lunch. That was $29.50 a day if you paid cash.

those are pretty fucked prices for cafeteria quality food. $900/month to eat? My rent plus food was less than that in school.

I got a job at the dining commons. They deducted, I think, $70.00 per month from my check for a meal plan that provided me with 5 meals a week plus any shift I worked. That saved me a pretty penny, I tell ya!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gawain 0]

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A meal in the school cafeteria was $13.50 for dinner, and $8 for breakfast and lunch. That was $29.50 a day if you paid cash.

those are pretty fucked prices for cafeteria quality food. $900/month to eat? My rent plus food was less than that in school.

I got a job at the dining commons. They deducted, I think, $70.00 per month from my check for a meal plan that provided me with 5 meals a week plus any shift I worked. That saved me a pretty penny, I tell ya!

WAIT A MINUTE!! Are you saying that you took YOUR OWN INITIATIVE to help your way throught school??!!??!!

G-DAMMIT WHY DIDN'T YOU FIND A WELFARE PROGRAM TO DO THAT.

ARRRRGGGHHHH!! *head splitting open*









Just kidding, nice work.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Nightingale 0]

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A meal in the school cafeteria was $13.50 for dinner, and $8 for breakfast and lunch. That was $29.50 a day if you paid cash.

those are pretty fucked prices for cafeteria quality food. $900/month to eat? My rent plus food was less than that in school.

I got a job at the dining commons. They deducted, I think, $70.00 per month from my check for a meal plan that provided me with 5 meals a week plus any shift I worked. That saved me a pretty penny, I tell ya!

You're lucky. The company running the cafeteria at my school didn't hire students. The cafeteria food was damn good though... Meal plans ran about $3K per year, so I guess it was a little more than half price if you paid in advance.