Educational level of US states

[billvon 3,111]

>It's called a library John.

What? A socialistic federally-funded program that steals from the rich and gives to people who can't even bother to work enough to afford their own books? For shame, pushing such a socialistic program that encourages people to not work for their books!

[kallend 2,147]

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>It's called a library John.

What? A socialistic federally-funded program that steals from the rich and gives to people who can't even bother to work enough to afford their own books? For shame, pushing such a socialistic program that encourages people to not work for their books!

I prefer your reply to mine. I'll go with yours.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I'm curious as to how you think a welfare mother who dropped out of school at 14 will instill literacy in her children with no outside assistance. Maybe you should take a break from the corn fields of Iowa and take a drive through the inner city sometime.

It's called a library John.

That's outside assistance and "elitist", unless the mother mysteriously has her own library.

[kallend 2,147]

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I'm curious as to how you think a welfare mother who dropped out of school at 14 will instill literacy in her children with no outside assistance. Maybe you should take a break from the corn fields of Iowa and take a drive through the inner city sometime.

It's called a library John.

That's outside assistance and "elitist", unless the mother mysteriously has her own library.

The Public Library?

[Channman 2]

There you go putting thoughts in my head. You must be smart or something.

[rehmwa 2]

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So if we were walking to the plane, you fell down and I lent you my hand would you be all like "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or would you say "Thanks" recognising I just made something a bit easier for you?

Not at all, my issue isn't with those programs, it's the arrogant attitude of a select few that think people aren't smart enough to do it for themselves at all.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe you should take a break from the corn fields of Iowa and take a drive through the inner city sometime.

There's that non-elitist attitude in spades again proving Lawrocket's good post. You're not a nice person at all are you?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,111]

>You're not a nice person at all are you?

Let's avoid the personal comments.

[lawrocket 3]

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The left supports things like "Head Start" to help parents break the cycle of poverty for their children

Indeed. Now, are they helping the parents break the cycle of poverty? Seems to me, the US government has been trying desperately to break cycle of poverty since the 60's. And yet, despite these programs, by most accounts the problem is worse, which leads one to believe that it has had the efficacy of the War on Drugs, a generally right-wing program.

The issue with the assistance offered is that what was proposed to be a "safety net" has become a "hammock." Welfare spending(aka "entitlements") has affected our budget to as much of an extent as the defense budget, only without the cool shit to show for it. The problem with these entitlements is that people that didn't have them before rely on them, and hence don't take the steps themselves to get off of them. Why do it?

We did a fairly good job of educating the children back before the days of the great society. Were there problems with society to deal with? Absolutely. Look at us today. A "head start?" It seems that this program is necessary now BECAUSE the elite thought these people needed help.

Now a kick in the ass may be needed. When the defense budget was slashed in the 1990's, people who relied on those jobs found new ones. Well, why not see if the same thing works with other programs. Is it that people getting something for nothing deserve better than people getting something for something? If so, why?

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programs which have been gutted by the right who now say affirmative action is discrimination and the poor deserve their condition.

Affirmative action IS discrimination, Doctor. It so happens that the public policy is one that makes the form of discrimintaion acceptable. To deny that affirmative action discriminates is to do what you despise. It "flies in the face of facts."

And as far as programs gutted by the right, well, which programs and "how?" Well, back in February, the House passed a bill cutting about 40 billion in entitlement spending on student loans, crop subsidies, and Medicaid (which maintained a means-test). Why, entitlement spending has grown from under 1.1 trillion in 2001 to over 1.3 trillion in 2005. Oh, yes - Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security spending eat up about 11 percent of our GDP.

Not all of the poor deserve their condition. Most do not. Some do. The issue is, "Whose responsibility is the poor?" In the past, people were responsible for themselves. Now, we have a system where the state assumes responsibility for the welfare of the citizenry.

It's this ideal that, in my opinion, helped lead to the issues with Hurricane Katrina's aftermath. We've got the Feds now saying, "You guys better expect to take care of yourselves. If we can help, we will, but do not count on us." People expect the government to be there. "Help me. Help me. The government didn't help me." Well, time to be resourcefuls and help yourself.

The Repubs do it, too. The Patriot Act, etc., all stand for the notion that the welfare of the citizens comes from security. Rights? Oh, those things. How can we take care of you if you keep using those 'rights' to prevent us from taking care of you? Come on. You are our citizens, and you need protection. Yes, even from yourself." You know, Mr. President, I figured out a while back that I can take care of myself much easier if you just leave me alone to take care of myself.

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Education IS the way out of poverty.

Yes, it is. I'm proof. I spent the first six years of my life in Section 8 housing. It turns out, though, that my parents helped educate me. Oh, yeah, I took the onus to educate myself, as well.

Sure, I could have been out partying, doing drugs, being a thug, etc. I could have just let it be when I failed out of college. I actually spent a good deal of time feeling sorry for myself. I think it was once I stopped feeling sorry for myself and took charge of MY education MYSELF instead of waiting for SOMEONE ELSE to cover my then-sorry ass, that I actually got where I am now.

Education IS the way out of poverty. Education IS the responsibility of parents and the students, and not some government. It explains why some of the students in my high school went further than others.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,147]

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Maybe you should take a break from the corn fields of Iowa and take a drive through the inner city sometime.

There's that non-elitist attitude in spades again proving Lawrocket's good post. You're not a nice person at all are you?

I'm very nice to the underpriviliged. I do a lot of work with their kids. Not so nice to those who make a virtue of abandoning them to their "just deserts".

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

I'd say that it's the government's responsibility (and indirectly, ours as taxpayers and contributing members of society) to ensure that there is a place where children can learn. How they ensure that can be to provide it directly, contract it out or whatever. However, it is the job of the parents and the children to make sure that learning is actually taking place.

My dad's got a little desk sign somewhere that says "you can lead a mind to knowledge, but you can't make it think!"

[rehmwa 2]

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>You're not a nice person at all are you?

Let's avoid the personal comments.

Bill - you can make the same note to Kallend and Amazon in their normal correspondence, or I just don't believe you anymore. Kay?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,111]

>Education IS the way out of poverty. Education IS the responsibility
>of parents and the students, and not some government.

I agree, but I do think government has a role in ensuring that such education is available. There is no other government-provided service that is as important to our future as a nation - thus it would seem that providing education falls squarely under "promoting the general welfare" of the US, as well as securing the blessings of liberty for our children.

[Gawain 0]

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1. Washington D.C. - Note how totally blue D.C. is.

Curious. How can DC be considered "blue" if they can't vote?

They can (just not in Congress), they have three votes in the electoral college (due to the fact that DC may not have more electoral votes than the least populous state - Wyoming).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lawrocket 3]

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So if we were walking to the plane, you fell down and I lent you my hand would you be all like "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or would you say "Thanks" recognising I just made something a bit easier for you?

I'd probably do neither. I'd like to think that I picked myself up under my own power. If that wasn't possible, some help would be nice.

You've made a great point - too many people see this as a situation with two possible responses - "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or "Thanks?" There's a third possible situation - wait to see whether I NEED your help.

I've got a son. He'll be two next month. His mom tends to coddle him. That's nice - it's what mommies do. I help him with just about everything I can. But, if he falls down, he looks at me to come get him. Nope. "Get up, Conor! Come on. You're a BIG BOY!" 95 times out of 100, he got up. You know, he usually just gets himself up now without looking to us first. If he's down and stays down, and screams, then he's probably hurt and that requires some investigation. But coddling his every fall would mean that the serious shit that could befall him might not be given the seriousness it deserves considering past conduct.

Sure, it may seem like I am comparing such a person who looks to others for help before trying themselves as babies. For those who believe that, you are probably right.

Why am I so uncaring about such things? Maybe because that time you spent helping me up after my fall could have been spent gear checking some other newbie or helping someone else who might have NEEDED help, as opposed to me who may have simply been malingering.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,111]

>I just don't believe you anymore. Kay?

You can believe what you like. Just avoid the personal comments, please.

[jakee 1,594]

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You've made a great point - too many people see this as a situation with two possible responses - "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or "Thanks?" There's a third possible situation - wait to see whether I NEED your help.

Very true.

Anyway, stepping away from analogies (which tend to get very convoluted very quickly around here) it seems to me to be unfair and illogical to label those who offer help as arrogant and condescending.

I think your earlier comment about safety net versus safe hammock was also on the money. I am a supporter of the welfare state in principle, but lately it is getting sickening to see families with 5 kids, no one is employed who can somehow afford to outfit their free houses with PS2s and widescreen cable TVs (analogous to me picking you up and giving you a piggyback ride to the plane)... and for some reason the parents aren't out there trying to get jobs (go figure). IMO higher spending on means testing and weeding out the slobs could easily be recouped through the elimination of these bloodsucking scroungers. A change of emphasis towards providing useful education and vocational training might also bring benefits in the longer term.

At the end of the day though I would not want the desire to punish the freeloaders (as strong as that desire may be) to stand in the way of helping those that genuinely require it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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I do think government has a role in ensuring that such education is available.

Absolutely. Again, this is where I draw the line - the government makes it available. Whether it is to utilized appropriately is the responsibility of the parents and the students.

Sadly, in many places, the government is not able to perform its role because it has allowed itself to cringe at the thought of parents not providing the appropriate support to the schools and teachers.

Johnny got an "F" because Johnny didn't do his homework and got a "D" on the test. Teacher faces intimidation from the parents.

Johnny got suspended for threatening a teacher. Parent threatens a lawsuit.

For goodness sake, we've got policies like exit exams designed to ensure that the students are not being graduated who lack the skills necessary to succeed - that is, lack the education to succeed. What's the response to the kids who don't pass it and will be denied graduation? Lawsuits alleging the tests are racist, sexist, etc.

WHo is it that brings these lawsuits? The religious right? The libertarians? No, it's the left. These kids will have their feelings hurt if they aren't allowed to graduate. Sure, they lack the skills to get by n society. Sure, it prevents them from escaping poverty, right John? They aren't educated, as the test results show. Let's keep them that way, right?

These exit exams - are they the result of the Blue State way of thinking or the Red State way of thinking? Here are some things meant to ensure kids are getting educated. These are things forwarded generally by the right wing.

Those on the left are shooting these down, like school vouchers. Sure, vouchers may result in a better education for the kids - especially since it gives options to kids and parents where before there were none. Any good that would do is outstripped by other interests.

Right?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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it seems to me to be unfair and illogical to label those who offer help as arrogant and condescending.

I agree. I always like to offer help. Typically, it'sin the form of, "Well, here are some possible solutions."

On the other hand, there is the ideology out there that says, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It is an inescapable cycle. No matter how you try, they will keep you down. For those of you who are people of color, the system is racist and will discriminate against you and you won't get ahead, (shut up, Asians), so you are out of luck. Especially if you are not a native speaker of English (Asians, I'm warning you). For those of you who grew up poor, you will be kept there by the forces that put you there. You are all disadvantaged.

"You blacks, hispanics, etc? You cannot get ahead. Maybe some of the poorer whites can, but not you. You cannot rise to the top of the Joint Chiefs (Powell isn't a REAL black man), or be a Supreme Court Justice (None of you are Thurgood Marshall, and Clarence Thomas is a sell-out)."

That is poverty-pimping of the kind I despise. It is patronizing and insulting, arrogant and condescending.

The left wing seems to say, "You can't make it, no matter what. I know, because I'm up here." When discussing my background with a lefty, the usual response is, "So you think you are better than them because you've come this far?" My response is, "No. I'm no smarter than them, just more skeptical. My thought is that if I can do it, so can they. I think this because I do not believe that I am any better."

This is, I think, the crux of the ideological divide. I don'tthink I'm any better than the kid in the hood, because I WAS a kid in the hood - no better than any of them. I was just more skeptical of what I was told. Even though I was told that all the doors were closed, once I got past the people telling me that, I found out there were no doors to begin with.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,111]

>WHo is it that brings these lawsuits? The religious right?
>The libertarians? No, it's the left.

I did a quick news search on "parents sue school", looked for academically related lawsuits and got:

Parents suing over removal of a program which the school board decided was too "Judeo-Christian" in orientation. That would seem to indicate they were right-leaning.

Parents suing over teaching of intelligent design. I suppose that might indicate they were left-leaning.

Parents suing because a learning disability was ignored. She was diagnosed with ADHD, but was told it was not a learning issue. Hard to say there what their political affiliation was. Silly lawsuit overall because she did actually graduate.

Parents suing because homosexuality was mentioned in the curriculum. Seems fairly right wing.

Parents suing because a school district did NOT put stickers in their books saying "evolution was just a theory." Right wing.

I don't see the same bias you see, I guess. I see both sides suing schools, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for silly reasons.

[jakee 1,594]

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That is poverty-pimping of the kind I despise. It is patronizing and insulting, arrogant and condescending.

If that's true then there is certainly a cultural difference at work. I see very, very little race related issues discussed when it comes to welfare in the UK.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,147]

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So if we were walking to the plane, you fell down and I lent you my hand would you be all like "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or would you say "Thanks" recognising I just made something a bit easier for you?

I'd probably do neither. I'd like to think that I picked myself up under my own power. If that wasn't possible, some help would be nice.

You've made a great point - too many people see this as a situation with two possible responses - "Screw you! You don't think I'm good enough to stand up by myself!" or "Thanks?" There's a third possible situation - wait to see whether I NEED your help.

I've got a son. He'll be two next month. His mom tends to coddle him. That's nice - it's what mommies do. I help him with just about everything I can. But, if he falls down, he looks at me to come get him. Nope. "Get up, Conor! Come on. You're a BIG BOY!" 95 times out of 100, he got up. You know, he usually just gets himself up now without looking to us first. If he's down and stays down, and screams, then he's probably hurt and that requires some investigation. But coddling his every fall would mean that the serious shit that could befall him might not be given the seriousness it deserves considering past conduct.

Sure, it may seem like I am comparing such a person who looks to others for help before trying themselves as babies. For those who believe that, you are probably right.

Why am I so uncaring about such things? Maybe because that time you spent helping me up after my fall could have been spent gear checking some other newbie or helping someone else who might have NEEDED help, as opposed to me who may have simply been malingering.

You are a well educated attorney. Do NOT think that your life experience applies to a ward of the state who has spent his/her entire life in foster homes and is cut loose at the age of 18. Do NOT think your life experience applies to unmarried ghetto mothers who dropped out of school in 8th grade. While they may be undeserving of your sympathy, their children DO need help from others.

Failing to educate underprivileged kids is a sure way to perpetuate the problems of our underclass.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

I have no problem with government providing some services. Education being one of them as that is a benifit to society. However, I do have a problem with state sponsored teaching of gay and lesbian life styles and providing ecological indoctronation such as Captian Planet to forward causes. As long as the money goes to Washington first that will happen.

I also would not want this to happen in support of conservative causes.

Reading, writing and arithmatic. That is the job of the schools. It is the job of the parents to take care of the rest.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>WHo is it that brings these lawsuits? The religious right?
>The libertarians? No, it's the left.

I did a quick news search on "parents sue school", looked for academically related lawsuits and got:

Parents suing over removal of a program which the school board decided was too "Judeo-Christian" in orientation. That would seem to indicate they were right-leaning.

Parents suing over teaching of intelligent design. I suppose that might indicate they were left-leaning.

Parents suing because a learning disability was ignored. She was diagnosed with ADHD, but was told it was not a learning issue. Hard to say there what their political affiliation was. Silly lawsuit overall because she did actually graduate.

Parents suing because homosexuality was mentioned in the curriculum. Seems fairly right wing.

Parents suing because a school district did NOT put stickers in their books saying "evolution was just a theory." Right wing.

I don't see the same bias you see, I guess. I see both sides suing schools, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for silly reasons.

BECAUSE THE COURTS HAVE RULED IN WAYS THAT LEAVE THEM NO CHOICE BILL!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,111]

>However, I do have a problem with state sponsored teaching of gay
> and lesbian life styles and providing ecological indoctronation such
> as Captian Planet to forward causes.

Teaching ecology is an essential part of teaching biology. Call it Mother Nature if you prefer.

Teaching that gay people exist is required if students are to understand political issues like the gay marriage amendment debate (which is a very hot political topic.) Otherwise they will remain ignorant of modern politics.

Censoring schools so they conform to a certain set of politics is a dangerous precedent to set. They should teach what's happening in the real world, not what a certain political party would prefer them to believe.

>Reading, writing and arithmatic. That is the job of the schools.

And science, history and civics. Schools also have a responsibility to turn out students who can get into college (thus the science) and can vote (thus the history and civics.)