Flag Burning Amendment...

[Zipp0 1]

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Personally, I really don't care if someone wants to burn a flag or not.

But, I wonder how many of you who support someone's right to burn a flag also support the right of the KKK to burn a Cross?

The last flag burning I saw was in a documentary on Discovery, and was done not by a bunch of lefties, but by a group of skinheads. They burned the flag in the same ceremony as burning the cross.

The whole thing was rather comical.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[idrankwhat 0]

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A side note: many people think the First Amendment (or the Second, or the Fourth, etc.) is carved into stone and permanent. It's not. Any provision of the US Constitution (including, hypothetically, the First Amendment) can be repealed by means of another Amendment stating simply: "Amendment [insert number] of this Constitution is hereby repealed." It's already been done with other constitutional provisions.

True. But it certainly would be symbolic to repeal the first one that the Framers came up with.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I wonder how many people support this amendmend but are against a smoking ban becaus ethey feel government shouldn't dictate what a private business/person can or cannot do on private property?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Just another fabricated wedge issue, much like gay marriage. Really the the most important issues of the day, right? Yawn. These jerkoffs need to go do their real jobs - you know, the one we hired them to do - and get some potholes fixed, some people fed and some wars stopped.

It's only June - haven't they shot the wad on cliched wedge issues? Shouldn't they have saved a few for closer to the election?

[kelpdiver 2]

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I have American Flag pajamas and I don't consider myself un-Patriotic.

What's patriotic about rubbing your ass on the Flag?

[Lefty 0]

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I think that passing an amendment outlawing the burning of the flag is probably the only thing that could inspire some people to go out and burn one.

Yup. Like I said in my original post, if this amendment had passed, I would have been inspired to do exactly that.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I wonder how many people support this amendmend but are against a smoking ban becaus ethey feel government shouldn't dictate what a private business/person can or cannot do on private property?

Probably not too many.

Speed Racer
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[Amazon 7]

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Speaking of 4 USC § 1....

4 USC § 1 8(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

DAYUM they could throw most of the rednecks in the country into jail for desecrating the flag.

[nanook 1]

That's good news. Now I can wear my flag-shirt on the fourth of july.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

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Just another fabricated wedge issue, much like gay marriage. Really the the most important issues of the day, right? Yawn. These jerkoffs need to go do their real jobs - you know, the one we hired them to do - and get some potholes fixed, some people fed and some wars stopped.

It's only June - haven't they shot the wad on cliched wedge issues? Shouldn't they have saved a few for closer to the election?

"Illegal immigration amnesty" is still in play.

[Royd 0]

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But, I wonder how many of you who support someone's right to burn a flag also support the right of the KKK to burn a Cross?

Oh, never. That borders on being a hate crime.

[hairyjuan 0]

speaking of 4USC, where do you find authority for the gold fringe that you see on EVERY flag, in EVERY government building, in EVERY courtroom, etc? cite it for me, please

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Nightingale 0]

FRINGE ON THE AMERICAN FLAG

Gold fringe is used on the National flag as an honorable enrichment only. It is not regarded as an integral part of the flag and its use does not constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statutes.

Records of the Department of the Army indicate that fringe was used on the National flag as early as 1835 and its official use by the Army dates from 1895. There is no record of an Act of Congress or Executive Order which either prescribes or prohibits the addition of fringe, nor is there any indication that any symbolism was ever associated with it. The use of fringe is optional with the person or organization displaying the flag.

A 1925 Attorney General’s Opinion (34 Op. Atty. Gen 483) states:

"The fringe does not appear to be regarded as an integral part of the flag, and its presence cannot be said to constitute an unauthorized additional to the design prescribed by statute. An external fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under the law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe."

It is customary to place gold fringe on silken (rayon-silk-nylon) National flags that are carried in parades, used in official ceremonies, and displayed in offices, merely to enhance the beauty of the flag. The use of fringe is not restricted to the Federal Government. Such flags are used and displayed by our Armed Forces, veterans, civic and civilian organizations, and private individuals. However, it is the custom not to use fringe on flags displayed from stationary flagpoles and, traditionally, fringe has not been used on internment flags.

-http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQ/FringeOnAmFlg.htm

The quote below concerning gold fringe on the Flag is from the book "So Proudly We Hail, The History of the United States Flag" Smithsonian Institute Press 1981, by Wiliam R. Furlong and Byron McCandless. "The placing of a fringe on Our Flag is optional with the person of organization, and no Act of Congress or Executive Order either prohibits the practice, according to the Institute of Hearaldry. Fringe is used on indoor flags only, as fringe on flags on outdoor flags would deteriorate rapidly. The fringe on a Flag is considered and 'honorable enrichment only', and its official use by the US Army dates from 1895.. A 1925 Attorney General's Opinion states: 'the fringe does not appear to be regarded as an integral part of the Flag, and its presence cannot be said to constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statute. An external fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe.'"

The gold trim is generally used on ceremonial indoor flags that are used for special services and is believed to have been first used in a military setting. It has no specific significance that I have ever run across, and its (gold trim) use is in compliance with applicable flag codes and laws.
-http://www.usflag.org/colors.html

Q: What is the significance of the gold fringe which we see on some American flags?

A: Records indicate that fringe was first used on the flag as early as 1835. It was not until 1895 it was officially added to the National flag for all regiments of the Army. For civilian use, fringe is not required as an integral part of the flag, nor can its use be said to constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statute. It is considered that fringe is used as an honorable enrichment only.
-American Legion http://legion.org/?section=our_flag&subsection=flag_faq&content=flag_faq#10

[ryanocerous 0]

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There are many ways to "desecrate" a flag without burning it. One example, if you have one affixed to your car I suggest that you stop and pick up a portable light on the way home. Also, I wonder how many people know how to display it properly when hanging it vertically.

I remember after September 11 everyone and their mother had at least one flag flying over their Suburban. By February they were all torn to shreds and no one gave a damn. IF they took them down they probably just threw them in their trashcans to be covered with used coffee grounds. Otherwise they continued to drive around with a shredded flag to show their TRUE (new-found?) PATRIOTISM!

So what's disrespectful anyways?

[tbrown 26]

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...failed by one vote in the Senate.

Clicky

Personally, if this ever became a law I might just burn a flag or two myself. I never thought I'd want to do that.

Oh my god, I saw some of them godless atheistic flagburners on the drive home from work to today and they wuz burnin' up a storm at almost every red light I was havin' to stop at. Big flags, little flags, in between flags, mah gawd it was just awful and that's not even thinkin' about what all this flag burnin' is doin' to the air pollution index. Criminy, somebody ought to amend the fucking Constitution before some poor asthmatic child goes tits up.

It's down to one fucking vote in the Senate ? Does anybody even remember the quote about the flag being the last refuge of scoundrels ? I'm tempted to burn just a teensyt weensy flag in the privacy of my own bathroom just to celebrate and give thanks for one small freedom preserved.

We are so close to losing ALL of them.....

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Lucky... 0]

Any entepreneurs out there? American flag toilet paper.... you could be a millionaire....

[Lucky... 0]

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I see burning the flag as the equivalent of hate speech...

So? Should speech be restricted just because someone finds it "hateful"? Do people have a right not to be hated?

He looks at it as dropping the N-bomb. The problem with that is that conventionally hate speech must be directed at a minoroty of the population.

[Lucky... 0]

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Y'know, I wish that our illustrious legislative branch would pay attention to the talk in places like this. .

But then how can the politician go on the campaign trail and simultaneously CLAIM that he tried to protect the flag (initiating the vote) and also protected free speech (by voting against his own proposal). What a waste of time.

Neal - I suspect calling flag burning "hate speech" would depend on the context of the act, not the act itself.....

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Neal - I suspect calling flag burning "hate speech" would depend on the context of the act, not the act itself.....[/

As well as hating the people who love the flag, which is extreeeeeeeeeeeeeemely vicarious. It is possible to hate the flag and what it repesents w/o hating the people who love the flag. Again, people w/o a real argument stretch to using abstract argument.

[Lucky... 0]

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I see burning the flag as the equivalent of hate speech...

So? Should speech be restricted just because someone finds it "hateful"? Do people have a right not to be hated?

They have the right to the "pursuit of happiness." I read that to mean they have the right not to be hated.

Hating the flag does not equal hating people who love the flag...... nice try.

I have no requirement to tender your feelings when I decide how I feel about the flag or America.

[Lucky... 0]

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There are many ways to "desecrate" a flag without burning it.

All those flag halter tops & Tshirt; those hats with obvious flag designs; flag pillows & towels -- that's generally desecrating the flag.

Wendy W.

Window and bumper stickers too..... I bet many flag wavers have those...

[Lucky... 0]

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There are many ways to "desecrate" a flag without burning it.

All those flag halter tops & Tshirt; those hats with obvious flag designs; flag pillows & towels -- that's generally desecrating the flag.

Wendy W.

I have American Flag pajamas and I don't consider myself un-Patriotic.

The important, "I don't consider ..."

I think America is more wrong than right these days, I served in the military and I consider myself to be a patriotic American. See, it's all subjective.

[Lucky... 0]

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I have American Flag pajamas and I don't consider myself un-Patriotic.

Do you realize how difficult it is to resist a "half mast" joke??!?!?!?
Ooops.

Or stand and salute!

[Lucky... 0]

To understand flag burning, I think we should revisit the Boston Tea Party. The peotestors didn't hate tea, they hated the taxation that went along with it. The American flag burners, to my understanding, don't hate America, they hate what it does as it exploits and kills aother people and its own.

[idrankwhat 0]

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It's only June - haven't they shot the wad on cliched wedge issues? Shouldn't they have saved a few for closer to the election?

"Illegal immigration amnesty" is still in play.

[wildblue 7]

Dammit... and I was going to steal scott adams' idea and start a 'near flag' making company.

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I was delighted to learn that American politicians are trying to make it illegal to burn the American flag. That can only mean that my dedicated public servants have finally solved the problems of crime, drugs, war, poverty, terrorism, healthcare, immigration, and the mystery of why our children are such idiots compared to Norwegians. Evidently those issues are now under control. I was starting to worry that Congress was wasting my tax dollars doing stupid shit.

I heard Senator Frist compare the flag to a national monument. His point was that you wouldn’t want people to deface our one-of-a-kind historical treasures. Therefore we shouldn’t let people burn an American flag that is one of millions churned out every year by Chinese manufacturers. I think that was his best argument. I know it seems dumb when I recount it, but there was something about the robotic way Frist said it that gave me chills.

I consider myself a highly patriotic guy and I understand how people can get worked up over the flag being burned. I love my flag. But symbols are personal things, and everyone is free to interpret them however they see fit. For me, a flag that I’m NOT allowed to burn is a symbol that the government is too intrusive in my life. And it’s an insult to anyone who died to defend freedom. But that’s just me. You might prefer your symbols of freedom to have as many restrictions as possible.

It seems to me that the great thing about the flag is that it symbolizes something inherently indestructible: the concept of freedom. You can burn the flag as many times as you want and the concept of freedom is not only still there – it’s stronger. I like that about my flag. I would go so far as to say it’s my flag’s best feature.

I wouldn’t mind if Congress were considering changing some other feature of the flag. For example, if they wanted to represent Rhode Island with half a star, I could get behind that. But I’d hate to chip away at my flag’s freedom feature. That just seems wrong. Again, that’s just my personal and emotional opinion. I can see how people would feel different about it.

If flag burning becomes illegal, someone is going to start a company that sells flags that are slightly different from American flags – just different enough to be legal to burn. The burnable flags might have 51 stars, or 14 stripes – something like that. The beauty of this concept is that if you got caught burning a real American flag, you could claim it was really just a near-flag. That’s reasonable doubt. No one would ever get convicted.

The thing to remember about freedom is that it’s not given, it’s taken.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality