New evidence suggests a 1989 execution in Texas was a case of mistaken identity.

[kallend 2,117]

www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-tx-1-story,0,4563517.htmlstory

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

So 6 years of appeals, due process and further action that is taken for people that are given the death penalty is all bunk, but by god an investigation undertaken by a newspaper is gospel?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,117]

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So 6 years of appeals, due process and further action that is taken for people that are given the death penalty is all bunk, but by god an investigation undertaken by a newspaper is gospel?

The newspaper turned out to be correct 13 times in Illinois, where due process, cops, prosecutors, judges and juries had f^cked up.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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The newspaper turned out to be correct 13 times in Illinois, where due process, cops, prosecutors, judges and juries had f^cked up.

That holds true since Illinois law is exactly the same as Texas law, right?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,117]

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The newspaper turned out to be correct 13 times in Illinois, where due process, cops, prosecutors, judges and juries had f^cked up.

That holds true since Illinois law is exactly the same as Texas law, right?

Every single problem identified in the review of the Illinois system exists as bad or worse in Texas. You just haven't bothered to look into it since apparently executing innocent people doesn't matter down there.

It always amazes me that those who are most critical of the government's ability to run even the Post Office competently have this naive belief that the government can run a criminal justice system that is infallible.

"The case was compromised by shaky eyewitness investigation, sloppy police work and a failure to thoroughly pursue Hernandez as a possible suspect, the newspaper reported.

"De Luna's prosecutors maintain the right man was convicted, though the lead prosecutor acknowledged being troubled by some of the new information. A former police detective said he now thinks the wrong man was executed."

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

Gee John, you sure do get upset when I imply that maybe a better source for a criminal investigation then a newspaper may be needed.

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It always amazes me that those who are most critical of the government's ability to run even the Post Office competently have this naive belief that the government can run a criminal justice system that is infallible.

I've never had an overall problem with the Post Office. Although they occasional have a problem with an occasional instance of missing or lost mail from the Post Office, I don't believe that overall there is a serious problem (besides the price of stamps).

By the way, I like how you bolded certain items in your post in an attempt to upset me. Honestly the post is laughable.

In the past your arguements had more substance, it seems like over the past year or two they're really starting to slip. That's too bad, since the discusions and arguements were a lot more fun back then.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,117]

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Gee John, you sure do get upset when I imply that maybe a better source for a criminal investigation then a newspaper may be needed.

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It always amazes me that those who are most critical of the government's ability to run even the Post Office competently have this naive belief that the government can run a criminal justice system that is infallible.

I've never had an overall problem with the Post Office. Although they occasional have a problem with an occasional instance of missing or lost mail from the Post Office, I don't believe that overall there is a serious problem (besides the price of stamps).

By the way, I like how you bolded certain items in your post in an attempt to upset me. Honestly the post is laughable.

In the past your arguements had more substance, it seems like over the past year or two they're really starting to slip. That's too bad, since the discusions and arguements were a lot more fun back then.

Some people have a naive belief in the infallibility of the criminal justice system, when the facts show that it makes a lot of mistakes.

I noticed you haven't rebutted a thing I wrote, you just made an ad hominem attack on the quality of my posts.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

If everyone would like to mount their favourite hobby-horse, we'll start almost imediately!

I have no doubt that there was sufficient evidence to convict at the time. The appeals process will simply examine the original case for procedural correctness. There will be no actual retrial without MAJOR new evidence.

So... Now that the guy is dead, his conviction appears to be unsafe. This isn't the first time this has happened. In fact, it's not all that unusual.

This exposes the insane barbarity of capital punishment. A criminal-justice system which is so arrogant it believes itself so faultless that it can adopt a position it can't withdraw from.

Lets say for a moment that an independent investigation DOES show that De-Luna was innocent and that the perpetrator was Hernandez. What do you do? Try Hernandez for murder? While you can pardon De-Luna, you can hardly bring him back to life, can you!?

Should the prosecutor and investigating police officer be tried for conspiracy to commit murder? They put together a case and succeeded in having De-Luna killed. If the killing turns out to be unlawful by virtue of De-Luna's innocence?...

I've been a cop for 20 years. I've seen how ANY police service works. I've commonly been their most vociferous defendants on these forums.

BUT... I also know that when faced with a crime, police officers set out to "get a result". Once they have a suspect "in the frame", then they focus on collecting evidence of his guilt. They approach interviewing him as a guilty person who's trying to get out of being punished. What doesn't help their case tends to get ignored as "irrelevant" to THEIR case unless it all starts to suggest a suspects innocence.

Then comes the adversarial trial system, with failures to disclose evidence on BOTH sides. Each side on;ly presents the evidence they found which supports their own side of the argument. And the better argument wins.

It's not surprising that mistakes are made. What IS surprising is that so few mistakes are made. What is idiotic is that this flawed system is given the power to kill a person if it wishes!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[mpohl 1]

Has it ever occured that a penalty that does not allow for the correction of human fallacies (shortcomings in police work, witnesses, criminal justice system), is uncivilized.

Why is it that Texas can be named in the same breath as such sophisticated places as China and Saudi Arabia. What are you trying to defend?

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So 6 years of appeals, due process and further action that is taken for people that are given the death penalty is all bunk, but by god an investigation undertaken by a newspaper is gospel?

[Nightingale 0]

Since 1973, 123 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. The system does make mistakes. We wouldn't have an appeals process if the system didn't make mistakes. Sometimes, especially when the appeals and execution process is streamlined, innocent people may be executed before technology develops to prove their innocence.

Here's another report:


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"Four of the nation's top arson experts have concluded that the state of Texas executed a man in 2004 based on scientifically invalid evidence, and on Tuesday they called for an official reinvestigation of the case.

In their report, the experts, assembled by the Innocence Project, a non-profit organization responsible for scores of exonerations, concluded that the conviction and 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham for the arson-murders of his three daughters were based on interpretations by fire investigators that have been scientifically disproved.
...

The experts were asked to perform an independent review of the evidence after an investigation by the Tribune that showed Willingham had been found guilty on arson theories that have been repudiated by scientific advances. In fact, many of the theories were simply lore that had been handed down by generations of arson investigators who relied on what they were told.

The report's conclusions match the findings of the Tribune, published in December 2004. The newspaper began investigating the Willingham case following an October 2004 series, "Forensics Under the Microscope," which examined the use of forensics in the courtroom, including the continued use of disproved arson theories to obtain convictions.

In strong language harshly critical of the investigation of the 1991 fire in Corsicana, southeast of Dallas, the report said evidence examined in the Willingham case and "relied upon by fire investigators" was the type of evidence "routinely created by accidental fires.""

entire article here
___


We have no idea how many innocent people have been executed. This is primarily because groups that investigate the cases that have landed people on death row focus on saving the living. Once someone is executed, they can no longer be helped, so the focus of the independent investigators, such as The Innocence Project, shift to focus on other potentially innocent lives that can be saved. However, those organizations are learning that by looking to the past and finding evidence exonerating innocent people who have been executed, they help their cause far more, because they give people a name and a face of a victim of the system.

If you get a chance, read "Death of Innocents" by Sister Helen Prejean. It's a very interesting book.

[Jasmin 0]

That over 120 convictions of death row inmates have been overturned in the US, proves the system is not perfect.

Edited to add:
As for your comments regarding journalists being ill equipped to investigate crimes AggieDave (ie "a better source for a criminal investigation then a newspaper may be needed"), you might want to read up on Dennis Williams who was convicted in Illinois in 1979 and finally released in 1996.

Williams was convicted, along with three others including Verneal Jimerson (who was also sentenced to death), for a young couple's murder in 1978. Williams was released on June 14, 1996, having spent 18 years in prison, because new evidence pointed to the fact that all four men were wrongly convicted. Much of the investigative work which led to the defendants' release was done by three journalism students.

Recent DNA tests indicate that none of the four men were involved in the crime, and another man has confessed to the murder.

Interesting that three journalism students could figure out what the police, law enforcement and prosecuters couldn't. The prosecuter involved has since apologised to all four of the men wrongly convicted as a result of his prosecution.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[mikkey 0]

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If everyone would like to mount their favourite hobby-horse, we'll start almost imediately!

I have no doubt that there was sufficient evidence to convict at the time. The appeals process will simply examine the original case for procedural correctness. There will be no actual retrial without MAJOR new evidence.

So... Now that the guy is dead, his conviction appears to be unsafe. This isn't the first time this has happened. In fact, it's not all that unusual.

This exposes the insane barbarity of capital punishment. A criminal-justice system which is so arrogant it believes itself so faultless that it can adopt a position it can't withdraw from.

Lets say for a moment that an independent investigation DOES show that De-Luna was innocent and that the perpetrator was Hernandez. What do you do? Try Hernandez for murder? While you can pardon De-Luna, you can hardly bring him back to life, can you!?

Should the prosecutor and investigating police officer be tried for conspiracy to commit murder? They put together a case and succeeded in having De-Luna killed. If the killing turns out to be unlawful by virtue of De-Luna's innocence?...

I've been a cop for 20 years. I've seen how ANY police service works. I've commonly been their most vociferous defendants on these forums.

BUT... I also know that when faced with a crime, police officers set out to "get a result". Once they have a suspect "in the frame", then they focus on collecting evidence of his guilt. They approach interviewing him as a guilty person who's trying to get out of being punished. What doesn't help their case tends to get ignored as "irrelevant" to THEIR case unless it all starts to suggest a suspects innocence.

Then comes the adversarial trial system, with failures to disclose evidence on BOTH sides. Each side on;ly presents the evidence they found which supports their own side of the argument. And the better argument wins.

It's not surprising that mistakes are made. What IS surprising is that so few mistakes are made. What is idiotic is that this flawed system is given the power to kill a person if it wishes!

Mike.

Great post! It should also be mentioned that capital punishment as a deterrent is probably not true. Countries who do not execute have mostly lower rates of homicide then those who do.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mnealtx 0]

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Great post! It should also be mentioned that capital punishment as a deterrent is probably not true. Countries who do not execute have mostly lower rates of homicide then those who do.

Non sequitur - the presence of capital punishment (or not) is not correlative to homicide rates. Individual country's culture has much more to do with that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Quote

The newspaper turned out to be correct 13 times in Illinois, where due process, cops, prosecutors, judges and juries had f^cked up.

That holds true since Illinois law is exactly the same as Texas law, right?

Death penalty cases are automatically appealed to the US Sup Ct, so that standard is applied, not a state standard.

[Lucky... 0]

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Gee John, you sure do get upset when I imply that maybe a better source for a criminal investigation then a newspaper may be needed.

Quote

It always amazes me that those who are most critical of the government's ability to run even the Post Office competently have this naive belief that the government can run a criminal justice system that is infallible.

I've never had an overall problem with the Post Office. Although they occasional have a problem with an occasional instance of missing or lost mail from the Post Office, I don't believe that overall there is a serious problem (besides the price of stamps).

By the way, I like how you bolded certain items in your post in an attempt to upset me. Honestly the post is laughable.

In the past your arguements had more substance, it seems like over the past year or two they're really starting to slip. That's too bad, since the discusions and arguements were a lot more fun back then.

Yes, this issue is all about you. Why not address the substance of the issue rather than the person, even if it's you. Come on, smoke a few innocent people in the name of the falacy we call deterrence...no biggie, right?

[kallend 2,117]

Quote

Quote

Great post! It should also be mentioned that capital punishment as a deterrent is probably not true. Countries who do not execute have mostly lower rates of homicide then those who do.

Non sequitur - the presence of capital punishment (or not) is not correlative to homicide rates. Individual country's culture has much more to do with that.

No correlation means that it is not a deterrent, doesn't it?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

G'morning John, how was your weekend?

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No correlation means that it is not a deterrent, doesn't it?

It means (in my mind) that it's not proven to be either a deterrent or NOT a deterrent.

The only correlation I can find is a decided lack of recidivism connected to it...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

If everyone would like to mount their favourite hobby-horse, we'll start almost imediately!

I have no doubt that there was sufficient evidence to convict at the time. The appeals process will simply examine the original case for procedural correctness. There will be no actual retrial without MAJOR new evidence.

So... Now that the guy is dead, his conviction appears to be unsafe. This isn't the first time this has happened. In fact, it's not all that unusual.

This exposes the insane barbarity of capital punishment. A criminal-justice system which is so arrogant it believes itself so faultless that it can adopt a position it can't withdraw from.

Lets say for a moment that an independent investigation DOES show that De-Luna was innocent and that the perpetrator was Hernandez. What do you do? Try Hernandez for murder? While you can pardon De-Luna, you can hardly bring him back to life, can you!?

Should the prosecutor and investigating police officer be tried for conspiracy to commit murder? They put together a case and succeeded in having De-Luna killed. If the killing turns out to be unlawful by virtue of De-Luna's innocence?...

I've been a cop for 20 years. I've seen how ANY police service works. I've commonly been their most vociferous defendants on these forums.

BUT... I also know that when faced with a crime, police officers set out to "get a result". Once they have a suspect "in the frame", then they focus on collecting evidence of his guilt. They approach interviewing him as a guilty person who's trying to get out of being punished. What doesn't help their case tends to get ignored as "irrelevant" to THEIR case unless it all starts to suggest a suspects innocence.

Then comes the adversarial trial system, with failures to disclose evidence on BOTH sides. Each side on;ly presents the evidence they found which supports their own side of the argument. And the better argument wins.

It's not surprising that mistakes are made. What IS surprising is that so few mistakes are made. What is idiotic is that this flawed system is given the power to kill a person if it wishes!

Mike.

Quote

I have no doubt that there was sufficient evidence to convict at the time.

The judges usually side with prosecutors in their conviction, so the standard lowers.

Quote

The appeals process will simply examine the original case for procedural correctness. There will be no actual retrial without MAJOR new evidence.

Much more than that. It examines things like jury instructions, jury selction, bias, new evidence, etc.... Don't oversimplify it.

This case will have no new revolation as far as a new trial, the defendant has been murdered by the state so it's a moot point.

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Should the prosecutor and investigating police officer be tried for conspiracy to commit murder?

They have immunity from virtually every crime. It may not be spelled out, but it's there - judges love them both.

Quote

BUT... I also know that when faced with a crime, police officers set out to "get a result". Once they have a suspect "in the frame", then they focus on collecting evidence of his guilt. They approach interviewing him as a guilty person who's trying to get out of being punished. What doesn't help their case tends to get ignored as "irrelevant" to THEIR case unless it all starts to suggest a suspects innocence.

This is the 1st time i've read a cop write this.... very true.

[kallend 2,117]

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G'morning John, how was your weekend?

Quote

No correlation means that it is not a deterrent, doesn't it?

It means (in my mind) that it's not proven to be either a deterrent or NOT a deterrent.

The only correlation I can find is a decided lack of recidivism connected to it...

Nice weekend, thanks. 2 parties, skydiving, flying my plane... You?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

MNealTX,

The issue isn't whether capital punishmant acts as a deterrent. The issue IS that once someone has been executed, then it's impossible to have the sentence reversed if evidence comes out that he was in fact innocent.

NO criminal justice system is so infallible that miscarriages of justice NEVER occur. The difference between life imprisonment (or that wonderful Americnism; "Life + 99 Years"), and execution, is that should a convicted murderer be later found innocent, the "lifer" can be released. The "executed" can't be brought back to life!

In the De-Luna case, and others, an innocent man has been killed! Isn't that premeditated murder and conspiracy to murder? Morally if not legally.

Lucky,

Regardless of the seniority of the court, mistakes still happen. Innocent people are killed. Howq can you defend a system which by it's own admissions kills innocents?

The "competitive and adversarial" Criminal-Justice system is basically good and usually gets to the truth of a case, but there are occasions where it doesn't. It's not so infallible to bet a human life on it.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Nice weekend, thanks. 2 parties, skydiving, flying my plane... You?

Work, as usual... counting down the days to vacation and Skyfest...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

MNealTX,

The issue isn't whether capital punishmant acts as a deterrent. The issue IS that once someone has been executed, then it's impossible to have the sentence reversed if evidence comes out that he was in fact innocent.

NO criminal justice system is so infallible that miscarriages of justice NEVER occur. The difference between life imprisonment (or that wonderful Americnism; "Life + 99 Years"), and execution, is that should a convicted murderer be later found innocent, the "lifer" can be released. The "executed" can't be brought back to life!

In the De-Luna case, and others, an innocent man has been killed! Isn't that premeditated murder and conspiracy to murder? Morally if not legally.

Lucky,

Regardless of the seniority of the court, mistakes still happen. Innocent people are killed. Howq can you defend a system which by it's own admissions kills innocents?

The "competitive and adversarial" Criminal-Justice system is basically good and usually gets to the truth of a case, but there are occasions where it doesn't. It's not so infallible to bet a human life on it.

Mike.

Agreed on all points. My original post was to point out the fact that there is no evidence showing a deterrent effect (or lack thereof) to capital punishment.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,117]

Here is Part 2:

www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-tx-2-story,1,6797462.htmlstory?coll=chi-news-hed

Sure looks like prosecutorial misconduct...

More to come.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,590]

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So 6 years of appeals, due process and further action that is taken for people that are given the death penalty is all bunk, but by god an investigation undertaken by a newspaper is gospel?

Ever hear of Randall Dale Adams? Had it not been for a documentary movie, TX would have happily executed him:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096257/#comment

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kallend 2,117]

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Quote

So 6 years of appeals, due process and further action that is taken for people that are given the death penalty is all bunk, but by god an investigation undertaken by a newspaper is gospel?

Ever hear of Randall Dale Adams? Had it not been for a documentary movie, TX would have happily executed him:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096257/#comment

More on Adams:

www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/RDAdams.htm

It's absurd to argue that the "system" works if the "system" has to include college journalism students and movie producers to prevent innocent people from being executed.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.