Colorado - about to be a much nicer place to live

[Rookie120 0]

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Cool. Figured they would be exempted. I support that.

Me to, since someday I want to open a cigar bar in Denver.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[skydyvr 0]

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Some people are wackos who enjoy murdering, stealing, and the like. Laws prevent them from doing things - legally, at any rate.

Not one of your better analogies here.

You are correct in stating that nobody has the right to inflict smoke on you, but you are wrong-o on all other counts. There are plenty of options out there short of forcing everyone to bend their lives around you.

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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I support that.

So you support Cigar Bars? Sounds like you're suffering from internal conflict.

Suppose I want to open a Jack Daniels 'n Marlboro Bar? Do you support that? Why not?

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[Gravitymaster 0]

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Do smokers HAVE to smoke in bars? No, they don't.

I gotta admit your view on this is a bit surprising. As a conservative, I am for less govt. intervention and for individual rights. That means the right to open my own business and decide what is legally permissable in my own establishment without government interference.

If I decide to open a bar and feel that my business will prosper more by banning smoking, then that's my call. If I post a sign outside that says "No Smoking" then I don't expect someone to come in and light up a smoke.

OTOH if I post a sign that says "This is a Smoking Bar", then thats my call too and I don't expect someone to come in and begin complaining about their right not to be subjected to second hand smoke when they knew what to expect before they came in.

How do you feel about someone who buys a house next to a dropzone and then complains about the noise?

BTW, I am a non-smoker, hate smoke, and I avoid bars where smokers go. I do not expect people to make exceptions for me and I certainly don't want the govt. mandating what should be the decision of the owner of a business.

[Rookie120 0]

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How do you feel about someone who buys a house next to a dropzone and then complains about the noise?

Well Denver is paying people to soundproof there home after they built there new home at the end of the runways at DIA. If that tells you how Denver works. New airport way out of town so it bothers nobody but they build and then bitch. Goes with the area I guess. Cannot wait to move back.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[TheAnvil 0]

It's an excellent analogy, actually - it just doesn't comport with your views.

Are farmers bending their lives around you by not using DDT and instead using more expensive insecticides?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Rookie120 0]

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Are farmers bending their lives around you by not using DDT and instead using more expensive insecticides?

What does that have to do with having a smoke while drinking a beer in a bar?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[skydyvr 0]

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It's an excellent analogy, actually . . .

Nope.

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[TheAnvil 0]

Quite a good one, actually. Murder, theft, arson, rape, assault - all cause physical harm to the victim and all are prohibited by law. Second hand smoke causes physical harm to the victim who inhales it, and a law will soon remove it from bars in CO. The only difference is the harm is not as serious - immediately at any rate.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[skydyvr 0]

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Quite a good one, actually. Murder, theft, arson, rape, assault - all cause physical harm to the victim and all are prohibited by law. Second hand smoke causes physical harm to the victim who inhales it, and a law will soon remove it from bars in CO. The only difference is the harm is not as serious - immediately at any rate.

The other difference is that in the case of smoking in bars, the "victim" becomes a willing participant in the "crime" if you post a simple sign on the door that says "Smoking is Allowed Here".

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[Rookie120 0]

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Quite a good one, actually. Murder, theft, arson, rape, assault - all cause physical harm to the victim and all are prohibited by law.

Last time I looked smoking was LEGAL.

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The only difference is the harm is not as serious - immediately at any rate.

Refinery's, powerplants, factories and what not polute also and affect everybody. Do you want to close all of those also?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[skydyvr 0]

Nice job avoiding every single point everyone brought against your stance on this issue.

Not good for credibility's sake, but hey -- it's easy. I know where you're coming from.

. . =(_8^(1)

[TheAnvil 0]

Think that if it makes you feel better. I've read your points and choose not to change my stance at all. Colorado will be a much nicer place to live when that law goes into effect. Healthier as well.

Since you never answered, I'll ask again: are farmers bending their lives around you by not using DDT? and what's the difference between a person lighting up a cigarette on the beach and someone spraying DDT into the air on the beach?

If the voters of the state of Colorado have a problem with the new law, they can pressure their legislators to change it. I doubt that will occur - it never would have passed had constituents been strongly against it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,147]

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Do smokers HAVE to smoke in bars? No, they don't.

I gotta admit your view on this is a bit surprising. As a conservative, I am for less govt. intervention and for individual rights. That means the right to open my own business and decide what is legally permissable in my own establishment without government interference.

.

As an anti-fascist (aka liberal), I am for less govt. intervention and for individual rights. I therefore support the right of a bar owner with no employees to kill him or herself with secondhand smoke from patrons if he or she wishes. However, if there are any employees, they should not be exposed to harmful chemicals in the workplace, any more than if they worked for a DDT factory or a plating plant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydyvr 0]

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Think that if it makes you feel better.

Nothing you say makes me feel "better" or "worse".

You've managed to justify your position with bizarre references to murder, mayhem, and DDT, none of which are sensible comparisons; none of which address the cultural issues or PERSONAL CHOICE issues surrounding smoking.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Do smokers HAVE to smoke in bars? No, they don't.

I gotta admit your view on this is a bit surprising. As a conservative, I am for less govt. intervention and for individual rights. That means the right to open my own business and decide what is legally permissable in my own establishment without government interference.

.

As an anti-fascist (aka liberal), I am for less govt. intervention and for individual rights. I therefore support the right of a bar owner with no employees to kill him or herself with secondhand smoke from patrons if he or she wishes. However, if there are any employees, they should not be exposed to harmful chemicals in the workplace, any more than if they worked for a DDT factory or a plating plant.

Then why not just outlaw cigarettes if they are so dangerous? Then we could have less tax dollars flowing into the Govt. which would reduce it's size. Oh, I forgot, the past administration would prefer to soak the tobacco companies for tax revenue than to actually do something to protect people.

Until the govt. is prepared to outlaw cigarettes, it's a legal product and business owners should have the right to make their own decisions on whether it's permissable in their establishments. You act as if there was some failure to disclose the fact that cigarette smoke would be present in the bar.

If I ever opened bar and decided to allow smoking, the first question I'd ask in the interview is "do you smoke". In they don't, I'd hire someone else.

Heck, next thing you know you'll be trying to tell me people aren't aware skydiving could cause injury or death before they jump. Do you support the validity of the waiver (aka the warning)?

[Calvin19 0]

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Colorado is about to become a place where there is more government intrusion directly in the form of REMOVING PERSONAL CHOICE from ALL people.

I'm surprised you're in favor of it.

Aye... being a 22 year colorado resident, in several different cities, Colorado will always be a great place to live for people who DONT GIVE A FUCK about the government. I like mountains, rivers, antenaes, and gliders. the skydiving SUCKS here, but hey, who gives a shit about skydiving anymore?

CH
The difference between BASE and Skyjumping is simple. I like new sky, freefall is the same everywhere. the view on the other hand, damn.

[skydyvr 0]

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... being a 22 year colorado resident, in several different cities, Colorado will always be a great place to live for people who DONT GIVE A FUCK about the government.

Exactly.

Actually, the farther you get away from downtown Denver, the less people give a flying fuck about government OR the people who shove it down our throats.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Rookie120 0]

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Exactly.

Actually, the farther you get away from downtown Denver, the less people give a flying fuck about government OR the people who shove it down our throats.

Man I love the Colorado Hippie types. Can I come hang out with you guys when I move back?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kallend 2,147]

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... being a 22 year colorado resident, in several different cities, Colorado will always be a great place to live for people who DONT GIVE A FUCK about the government.

Exactly.

Actually, the farther you get away from downtown Denver, the less people give a flying fuck about government OR the people who shove it down our throats.

Do you trust the government to run an infallible criminal justice system?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Answer my questions whenever you like.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,112]

>Perhaps something along the lines of a skydiving arguement:
>DZO's should provide safety lines to all instructors, so that if there's
>an accident, we can "reel 'em back in"!

They would kill far more skydivers/pilots than they would save.

However, if a DZO required all its employees to use AAD's, that would be well within their rights.

But that's something of a parallel argument. We're talking about the government passing laws that restrict people's activities for the general welfare of the working population. Perhaps a better example would be the FAA requirement that all aircraft meet certain safety standards before they are legal to fly in US airspace.

>I think a similar comparison might be miners (coal in particular).
>Their exposure to a variety of nasty's (even diffused through OSHA
>approved devices) is a hazzard that they accept while doing their job.

Agreed. And an OSHA rule that prohibited mines from sending miners into areas with dangerous gases present (even if those miners agreed to go into the area) might be a good one.

[wmw999 2,587]

Ya know, one alternative would be to require bars to have tobacco licenses, just as they have to have liquor licenses now. Then it could be posted out front "Smoking establishment" and nonsmokers would know to keep out.

Right now, virtually all bars are smoking bars.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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Ya know, one alternative would be to require bars to have tobacco licenses, just as they have to have liquor licenses now. Then it could be posted out front "Smoking establishment" and nonsmokers would know to keep out.

Right now, virtually all bars are smoking bars.

Wendy wins. Good position. Shame to have to regulate it.
I'd also like to see a specific legal punishment for those that smoke in a non-smoking establishment.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 30]

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Ya know, one alternative would be to require bars to have tobacco licenses, just as they have to have liquor licenses now. Then it could be posted out front "Smoking establishment" and nonsmokers would know to keep out.

Its not only about the patrons.

A business has no right to expose its emplyees to known dangerous chemicals IMO.

Unless these smoking bars have their wait staff in full isolation from second hand smoke, be it by proper respirators (and I can only imagine the number of cratridges needed for all the chemicals comming form cigs), or on O2 delivery, it still wouldnt fly for me.

Remster