penniless 0 #101 June 24, 2006 QuoteSince the BBC has so much credibility on this site, I thought this story was interesting. QuoteInside Out investigates how dangerous live military shells and bombs are going missing before the Army or Police can make them safe. Renegade military dealers and collectors are stealing 'live' chemical shells and bombs from the battlefields of Belgium and France. They are then smuggling these potentially deadly munitions back through the Channel Tunnel or on the ferries into the UK for sale on the military black-market or on the web. Trench warfare Our story starts 90 years ago. The Great War claimed over 15 million lives and focused on a narrow strip of land in Belgium and France. This intense trench warfare led to constant shelling by both sides, but not every bomb fired exploded. Hundreds of thousands failed to detonate. Today the remains of the Belgian front line can still be seen - some trenches are still visible, and visitors can walk past the barbed wire and inspect the rusting military hardware left behind. And it is those shells that are now resurfacing and presenting a new threat. Ammunition sales FACT FILE * Every year more than 30 people are killed on the battlefields of Europe after disturbing or picking up unexploded bombs and shells. * It's estimated that three Titanics worth of unexploded bombs still litter the fields of France and Belgium, left over from World War 1. * Some of these shells contain deadly Mustard Gas and Phosgene. Chemical shells left over from World War 1 that are still as deadly as the day they were fired. * The Belgian Bomb Disposal Team brings back two lorry loads of unexploded bombs every day for safe destruction. * Inside the high security chemical warfare lab, bomb teams work four hour shifts inside special chemical suits as they take the gas shells apart and destroy the chemicals. Inside Out's investigation was kick-started last autumn by a set of brothers. Chris and Matt Haffenden are military collectors from Hailsham in Sussex and they told us they’d seen live First World War ammunition on sale in the South East of England. One man who did smuggle in a live military bomb was Stephen Hart from Tunbridge Wells. Last summer he was handed a nine month suspended prison sentence and a hefty fine after being caught with a unexploded mortar shell in the boot of his car at the entrance to the Channel Tunnel. This case made Inside Out wonder just what could a military enthusiast get hold of abroad so we headed off to the battlefields of Belgium to have a dig around. Bombs and shells A large amount of ammunition has been unearthed in the fields around the town of Ypres - and that is exactly where we headed. We wanted to find out where you could get live bombs and shells, and we also met with someone who had first hand knowledge that ammunition was being stolen off the battlefields. Domenik Dendooven is a curator at the museum and was worried live bombs and shells were disappearing before the army could make them safe. Some of the live shells going missing are toxic and contain chemicals that could kill. Trench warfare - bombs are still being uncovered It appears that toxic shells containing mustard gas and and phosgene were being stolen and were finding their way illegally back into the UK. So many live bombs are unearthed by farmers, there are designated spots where they are left for collection by the military. They may be 90-years-old and look harmless but the chemical agents can be as deadly as the day they were first made. Destroying them has to take place inside a high security lab. The scale of the problem is frightening and with toxic agents like phosgene and mustard gas, it is dangerous work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/south/series9/week_four.shtml So there we have it from the BBC. Did someone tell us the Chemical weapons from 20 or so years ago weren't dangerous? How can both be true? I think history has shown that old obsolete munitions are as dangerous to those who try to use them as weapons as to those who are the intended targets. Just because something is potentially dangerous does not make it a viable weapon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #102 June 24, 2006 QuoteI think history has shown that old obsolete munitions are as dangerous to those who try to use them as weapons as to those who are the intended targets. Just because something is potentially dangerous does not make it a viable weapon. So you are saying the BBC is lying? What possible reason could they have for that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #103 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteI think history has shown that old obsolete munitions are as dangerous to those who try to use them as weapons as to those who are the intended targets. Just because something is potentially dangerous does not make it a viable weapon. So you are saying the BBC is lying? What possible reason could they have for that? I think you misread the article you yourself quoted. Nowhere did it say this stuff isn't dangerous, and nowhere did it say it was still useful as a weapon.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #104 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think history has shown that old obsolete munitions are as dangerous to those who try to use them as weapons as to those who are the intended targets. Just because something is potentially dangerous does not make it a viable weapon. So you are saying the BBC is lying? What possible reason could they have for that? I think you misread the article you yourself quoted. Nowhere did it say this stuff isn't dangerous, and nowhere did it say it was still useful as a weapon. Quote* Some of these shells contain deadly Mustard Gas and Phosgene. Chemical shells left over from World War 1 that are still as deadly as the day they were fired. Sounds like they are still deadly as a weapon to me. It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless. I've never had to have the chemicals under my sink remove to a high security warfare lab. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #105 June 25, 2006 QuoteSounds like they are still deadly as a weapon to me. I heard from an army captain friend of mine that they found deadly LYE under the sink in an iraqui hut. Did you know that lye, if ingested in sufficient quantities, can KILL??? ARGHGHGHGH First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #106 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteSounds like they are still deadly as a weapon to me. I heard from an army captain friend of mine that they found deadly LYE under the sink in an iraqui hut. Did you know that lye, if ingested in sufficient quantities, can KILL??? ARGHGHGHGH And don't forget about CLOROX. I read somewhere you can make some nasty clorine gas w/ that stuff---------------------------------------------------I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #107 June 25, 2006 Still grasping at straws?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #108 June 25, 2006 Quote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are......"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #109 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #110 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #111 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteSounds like they are still deadly as a weapon to me. I heard from an army captain friend of mine that they found deadly LYE under the sink in an iraqui hut. Did you know that lye, if ingested in sufficient quantities, can KILL??? ARGHGHGHGH And don't forget about CLOROX. I read somewhere you can make some nasty clorine gas w/ that stuff--------------------------------------------------- I've heard the same thing about eating beans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #112 June 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Don't be a weasel . What you wrote previously was "It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless." Now, usless(sic) as a weapon, and harmless, are two very different things. I can think of lots of harmful things that are not weapons of mass destruction.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #113 June 25, 2006 Another good article from Fox on this...this fellow could have read this thread for some source data... Clicky Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #114 June 25, 2006 SIDE-BAR Do a search for "Iron Harvest".... it covers story of almost constant unearthing of unexploded ordenance in the Somme from WW1... It's estimated that something along the lines of 1/3 of the shells fired, failed to explode!!.. So there is still loads of gas filled ordenance buried out there (that doesn't mean that France and Belgium are storing WMDs). These may not be viable weapons but they are still extremely dangerous!! The town of Vimy was evacuated in 2001 when mustard gas leaked into the town!! [/SIDE-BAR] (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #115 June 26, 2006 Quote So there is still loads of gas filled ordenance buried out there (that doesn't mean that France and Belgium are storing WMDs). These may not be viable weapons but they are still extremely dangerous!! The problem in Iraq is that there are a bunch of radical nutcases who don't care who or how many they kill to achieve an end. All they would have to do is explode a few of these gas weapons on the upwind side of any town to cause major damage. Probably, many of the munitions that are used as IEDs couldn't be used as they were originally designed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #116 June 26, 2006 Thanks! Very interesting. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #117 June 26, 2006 QuoteAnother good article from Fox on this...this fellow could have read this thread for some source data... Clicky I await kallends bashing of your source for being so one sided"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #118 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnother good article from Fox on this...this fellow could have read this thread for some source data... Clicky I await kallends bashing of your source for being so one sided Nothing NEW to respond to. Same old same old. When and if Colin Powell rescinds his apology for his speech to the UN, I'll reconsider.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #119 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Don't be a weasel . What you wrote previously was "It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless." Now, usless(sic) as a weapon, and harmless, are two very different things. I can think of lots of harmful things that are not weapons of mass destruction. Exactly what I said and it does refute the claim that old munnitions with mustard gas are useless. What article are you reading? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #120 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Don't be a weasel . What you wrote previously was "It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless." Now, usless(sic) as a weapon, and harmless, are two very different things. I can think of lots of harmful things that are not weapons of mass destruction. Exactly what I said and it does refute the claim that old munnitions with mustard gas are useless. What article are you reading? He did not read the attachment of the post I just put up supporting HIS argument either (I think)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #121 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Don't be a weasel . What you wrote previously was "It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless." Now, usless(sic) as a weapon, and harmless, are two very different things. I can think of lots of harmful things that are not weapons of mass destruction. Exactly what I said and it does refute the claim that old munnitions with mustard gas are useless. What article are you reading? Are you claiming "useless" or "harmless"? You switch between them as if they mean the same thing. Try to be consistent and precise if you want a debate.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #122 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Still grasping at straws? No....I think you are...... Not even Bush or Rumsfeld make these claims any more. You are in a dwindling, tiny minority who still believe. Don't put words in my mouth. The only claim I made is that the mustard gas isn't as harmless as portrayed by some here. I also said these weapons were made pre-Gulf War I. What part of that did you fail to grasp? Do you agree or disagree that the mustard gas found in Iraq is as harmless as the chemicals under my kitchen sink? Don't be a weasel . What you wrote previously was "It also refutes some of the "experts" we have here on DZ.Com who claimed the chemical weapons found in Iraq were so old they were usless." Now, usless(sic) as a weapon, and harmless, are two very different things. I can think of lots of harmful things that are not weapons of mass destruction. Exactly what I said and it does refute the claim that old munnitions with mustard gas are useless. What article are you reading? Are you claiming "useless" or "harmless"? You switch between them as if they mean the same thing. Try to be consistent and precise if you want a debate. How about unusable junk, useless stuff, ineffective as a chemical agent, degraded bits of debris, Take your pick. Would you describe them as unusable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #123 June 26, 2006 Your're right of course... but they would need to find them first.... no one seems to know where they are. How long has it taken us to locate a few obselete items? Now if anyone did find [even one] them, and didn 't kill themselves in the process, then ...... But the continued implication that there is a large stock of viable WMDs that could be brought to theatre in minutes, still doesn't look too clever. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #124 June 26, 2006 QuoteYour're right of course... but they would need to find them first.... no one seems to know where they are. How long has it taken us to locate a few obselete items? . "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad". Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003 I suppose they just haven't looked there yet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
