TheAnvil 0 #76 June 23, 2006 That's sarin gas the AP article speaks about. If memory serves it was both mustard and sarin gas munitions that were found in Iraq according to the Negorponte memo. Any data on the mustard gas being inert? I haven't read the article you're quoting. Given the fact that Saddam Hussein was supplied with chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq war (and used them) it's no great shocker that the Iraqi munitions discovered would be from that era. I rarely listen to Rush or read his columns, though I enjoy his stuff when I happen to do so. Let me know if he writes such a letter. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #77 June 23, 2006 > Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. The report, made public in the midst of a partisan debate in Congress, says that about 500 munitions containing degraded chemical weapons, including mustard gas and sarin nerve agent, have been found in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion. But the intelligence officials said the munitions dated from before the 1991 Persian Gulf War and were for the most part badly deteriorated. "They are not in a condition where they could be used as designed," one intelligence official said. ------------------------------ > Given the fact that Saddam Hussein was supplied with >chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq war (and used them) . . . Well, of course he did. Heck, we helped him aim his weapons! "Washington began passing high-value military intelligence to Iraq to help it fight the war, including information from US satellites that helped fix key flaws in the fortifications protecting al-Basrah that proved important in Iran's defeat in the next month," (Kenneth Pollack, the Gathering Storm) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #78 June 23, 2006 Er...that's not what I was looking for. I was wondering if the mustard gas could still be lethal. I would suspect the munitions wouldn't function exactly as designed, but that leaves a lot of avenues open in itself. The way I read the articles about sarin is that the sarin could not have survived in a form capable of being lethal. Mustard gas, on the other hand, I haven't read anything about. These articles seem to be saying the same thing paraphrased differently - probably all using the Negroponte memo and Santorum press release/conference as their source and doing no further research on their own. For some odd reason I seem to remember French farmers finding mustard-gas contaminated munitions to this day from WW I. Must have seen it on the history channel or something. I believe we both helped aim and provided Iraqi weapons in the latter years of the Iran-Iraq war. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #79 June 23, 2006 >I was wondering if the mustard gas could still be lethal. I suspect enough of the degraded material would be. At this point it would be about as toxic as the chemicals under your sink, as one expert put it - and enough ammonia will kill you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #80 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt'll never happen. Wait until the spin gets started once they have a chance to read what to think and say on Moveon.org and Democratic Underground. Don't lose sight of what we are dealing with here. Wow, what a very non-childish way to encourage an intelligent discussion. As opposed to the Lib's reasoned and tolerant mention of anyone right of them only getting their info from Fox, Newsmax, etc.... right?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #81 June 23, 2006 Quote ......and you have not said a word about the 100s of thousands that SH killed before we got there so as I have stated before this is hollow point at pest. And you have not said a word about most of those people being killed while he was our ally. Actually, when we were sending money to Saddam between 1982 and 1988, 1988 was the year that we aided him the most. I think the figure is about $125 million. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #82 June 23, 2006 Quote For some odd reason I seem to remember French farmers finding mustard-gas contaminated munitions to this day from WW I. THE FRENCH ARE STILL USING WMD'S!!!!?!?!?! LET'S GO GET 'EM!!!! Sorry, I know I misrepresented your post but I couldn't resist Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #83 June 23, 2006 I don't think so. A 20 year decay time for that seems a bit low to me in a container such as a gas-tight warhead for either sarin or mustard gas. I'm not a ChemE and have no desire to become one, but would be interested in seeing what the times actually are. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #84 June 23, 2006 QuoteI don't think so. A 20 year decay time for that seems a bit low to me in a container such as a gas-tight warhead for either sarin or mustard gas. I'm not a ChemE and have no desire to become one, but would be interested in seeing what the times actually are. I don't have time to dig too deeply but under the right conditions it could probably still harm people for decades if sealed and stored below 15 degrees C. I haven't found anything about sealed storage degradation. Only what happens when exposed to air, soil or water. They've had some that's been dredged up by fisherman and done some damage due to the protective crust that forms when exposed to seawater. Of course we're talking about direct contact here. The stuff also degrades steel so that's a consideration when considering storage in a drum under the sand near the Iranian border. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #85 June 23, 2006 Quote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #86 June 23, 2006 Conservative for Chicago, yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #87 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004. I agree with you this isn't the WMDs we were told existed before going to war, but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" by simply reading a recently declassified report? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #88 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004. I agree with you this isn't the WMDs we were told existed before going to war, but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" by simply reading a recently declassified report? Who said anything about "old tricks"? You might at least quote me correctly... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #89 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004. I agree with you this isn't the WMDs we were told existed before going to war, but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" by simply reading a recently declassified report? Who said anything about "old tricks"? You might at least quote me correctly Want to play semantics, huh? OK. "tricks again" would suggest he's used tricks in the past. That would make those tricks "old". Using them again would mean he is using the same trick he's used in the past, hence "old tricks" The quotations I used weren't meant to quote you but to "ennunciate" my point. "Get it"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,219 #90 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004. I agree with you this isn't the WMDs we were told existed before going to war, but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" by simply reading a recently declassified report? Who said anything about "old tricks"? You might at least quote me correctly Want to play semantics, huh? OK. "tricks again" would suggest he's used tricks in the past. That would make those tricks "old". Using them again would mean he is using the same trick he's used in the past, hence "old tricks" The quotations I used weren't meant to quote you but to "ennunciate" my point. "Get it"? So now they are annunciation marks, eh? Who authorized you to reinvent English grammar?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #91 June 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote> Any data on the mustard gas being inert? Ask and ye shall receive: ----------------------------------- New report offers no evidence that Iraq stockpiled WMD Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON - A new, partially declassified intelligence report provides no new evidence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled weapons of mass destruction on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, as President Bush alleged in making the case for war, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday. ...... Santorum up to his tricks again, I guess. I hear he has a tough re-election battle this year. Today's Chicago Tribune says much the same thing (that this report is not the smoking gun the far right wants it to be). And for the neo-cons here, the Tribune is a conservative newspaper that endorsed Bush both in 2000 and 2004. I agree with you this isn't the WMDs we were told existed before going to war, but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" by simply reading a recently declassified report? Who said anything about "old tricks"? You might at least quote me correctly Want to play semantics, huh? OK. "tricks again" would suggest he's used tricks in the past. That would make those tricks "old". Using them again would mean he is using the same trick he's used in the past, hence "old tricks" The quotations I used weren't meant to quote you but to "ennunciate" my point. "Get it"? So now they are annunciation marks, eh? Who authorized you to reinvent English grammar? Well, we don't exactly write term papers on here so let's just call it taking a "creative liberty". Kinda like advertising. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #92 June 23, 2006 >but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" . . . In Santorum's defense, this is something of a new trick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #93 June 23, 2006 Quote>but how is Santorum "up to his old tricks" . . . In Santorum's defense, this is something of a new trick. That's better. Now explain how reading a recently declassified report is "something of a new trick". I suspect if you found out he had a recently declassified report that supported say..that there were no WMDs in Iraq or something else that made Bush look bad and didn't disclose it, you'd be all over him for covering up the truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #94 June 23, 2006 >Now explain how reading a recently declassified report is "something of a new trick". ------------------------ US Senators Try "New Trick" Startling Announcements the Order of the Day June 23, 2006 (Washington) - Several Republican senators made startling announcements today on the heels of Senator Rick Santorum's (R-PA) announcement concerning WMD's in Iraq. Santorum made the announcement yesterday after receiving new recently-unclassified information in a short letter. "The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction is in fact false," Santorum said. "We have found over 500 weapons of mass destruction and in fact have found that there are additional chemical weapons still in the country." The Department of Defense and the CIA have denied these claims. The announcements caused a stir among reporters at the capital, and the story was featured in most media outlets almost immediately. Other senators were quick to make similar announcements proclaiming victory in various areas. Mike Dewine (R-Ohio) announced that the US had, in fact, stopped several 9/11 style attacks, according to a recently-declassified memo written by a Department of Agriculture secretary. "Since September 11. 2001, we have had four more September 11ths. The fact that no major attacks took place on those dates means that we stopped four massive attacks and saved over 12,000 US lives." A CIA agent said no such plots have been discovered, and called the memo "a bit of gossip from a bored secretary." Bill Frist (R-Tenn) was quick to announce that not only had the US stopped four 9/11's, they had completely stopped terrorism. "We have succeeded in the war on terror, despite democratic opposition that would have gutted our defenses," said Frist at a news conference Friday. When a local reporter asked why the State Department had reported a rise in terrorism worldwide since 2001, he replied "Well, I meant in the US." Another reporter asked about the US anthrax attack that killed 5 people in 2001. Frist replied that that wasn't a "real" attack since it did not involve Islamic fundamentalism or any compelling video. John Warner (R-Virginia) followed with an announcement that the US had foiled a potential nuclear attack against Manhattan perpetrated by Saddam Hussein. Quoting from a recently discovered document, "X-Men vs Doctor Evil," Warner described foiling a "dastardly evil attack that would have leveled Manhattan and produce a mutant-infested, toxic wasteland fit only for extraterrestrials and Islamic terrorists." The document did not actually describe Saddam Hussein as the agent behind the foiled attack, but Warner explained that another document, "X-Men vs Doctor Evil - Resurrected" would produce the needed proof. "This next document will prove once and for all that Saddam Hussein did, in fact, pose a serious threat to the US, and that all critics of the war are whiny crybabies!" he exclaimed at the end of the press conference, waving the original document over his head. "Just as soon as it comes out in August," he added. The CIA could not understand the senator's statements sufficiently to comment on them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #95 June 23, 2006 Slow day at the office Bill? Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #96 June 23, 2006 Long drive to Vegas! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #97 June 24, 2006 Thats funny, Bill. Good luck in Vegas. Going for business or pleasure? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #98 June 24, 2006 QuoteQuote ......and you have not said a word about the 100s of thousands that SH killed before we got there so as I have stated before this is hollow point at pest. And you have not said a word about most of those people being killed while he was our ally. Actually, when we were sending money to Saddam between 1982 and 1988, 1988 was the year that we aided him the most. I think the figure is about $125 million. I am not the one making the any claim."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #99 June 24, 2006 Since the BBC has so much credibility on this site, I thought this story was interesting. QuoteInside Out investigates how dangerous live military shells and bombs are going missing before the Army or Police can make them safe. Renegade military dealers and collectors are stealing 'live' chemical shells and bombs from the battlefields of Belgium and France. They are then smuggling these potentially deadly munitions back through the Channel Tunnel or on the ferries into the UK for sale on the military black-market or on the web. Trench warfare Our story starts 90 years ago. The Great War claimed over 15 million lives and focused on a narrow strip of land in Belgium and France. This intense trench warfare led to constant shelling by both sides, but not every bomb fired exploded. Hundreds of thousands failed to detonate. Today the remains of the Belgian front line can still be seen - some trenches are still visible, and visitors can walk past the barbed wire and inspect the rusting military hardware left behind. And it is those shells that are now resurfacing and presenting a new threat. Ammunition sales FACT FILE * Every year more than 30 people are killed on the battlefields of Europe after disturbing or picking up unexploded bombs and shells. * It's estimated that three Titanics worth of unexploded bombs still litter the fields of France and Belgium, left over from World War 1. * Some of these shells contain deadly Mustard Gas and Phosgene. Chemical shells left over from World War 1 that are still as deadly as the day they were fired. * The Belgian Bomb Disposal Team brings back two lorry loads of unexploded bombs every day for safe destruction. * Inside the high security chemical warfare lab, bomb teams work four hour shifts inside special chemical suits as they take the gas shells apart and destroy the chemicals. Inside Out's investigation was kick-started last autumn by a set of brothers. Chris and Matt Haffenden are military collectors from Hailsham in Sussex and they told us they’d seen live First World War ammunition on sale in the South East of England. One man who did smuggle in a live military bomb was Stephen Hart from Tunbridge Wells. Last summer he was handed a nine month suspended prison sentence and a hefty fine after being caught with a unexploded mortar shell in the boot of his car at the entrance to the Channel Tunnel. This case made Inside Out wonder just what could a military enthusiast get hold of abroad so we headed off to the battlefields of Belgium to have a dig around. Bombs and shells A large amount of ammunition has been unearthed in the fields around the town of Ypres - and that is exactly where we headed. We wanted to find out where you could get live bombs and shells, and we also met with someone who had first hand knowledge that ammunition was being stolen off the battlefields. Domenik Dendooven is a curator at the museum and was worried live bombs and shells were disappearing before the army could make them safe. Some of the live shells going missing are toxic and contain chemicals that could kill. Trench warfare - bombs are still being uncovered It appears that toxic shells containing mustard gas and and phosgene were being stolen and were finding their way illegally back into the UK. So many live bombs are unearthed by farmers, there are designated spots where they are left for collection by the military. They may be 90-years-old and look harmless but the chemical agents can be as deadly as the day they were first made. Destroying them has to take place inside a high security lab. The scale of the problem is frightening and with toxic agents like phosgene and mustard gas, it is dangerous work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/south/series9/week_four.shtml So there we have it from the BBC. Did someone tell us the Chemical weapons from 20 or so years ago weren't dangerous? How can both be true? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #100 June 24, 2006 I knew I'd read about WW I mustard gas still being dangerous or seen it on TV somewhere! Thanks! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
