warpedskydiver 0 #51 June 21, 2006 Quote"So the AK is superior? on what fucking planet does this occur?" On planet earth . The Ak is one of the most durable weapons ever built . They run and they run and they don't stop . I own full auto AK's and M-16's . With a M-16 as designed at the sixties along side a AK designed in the same era , the AK will run better and is less likely to fail during use . The M-16 will fail before a AK does . I have AK's that have survived 50-60,000 rounds and keep on going without cleaning , try that with a M-16 . The Ak is not superior in reliability tests accuracy, stopping power, over the FAL or its variants.(especially the newer ones manufactured by DSARMS.) tests have been run, and the FAL came out on top as the best infantry rifle ever made. Please show me where I compared the AK to the M16. I understand your point about the M16 vs Ak47 matchup. Just remember to take your AK to the range and try shooting at 300 meter targets. Then tell me how much you like the 13.5" drop the bullet makes at that range when it was zeroed @200meters. Gee what does an AK look like? Oh yeah that's right those are the preferred weapon of dead guys all over the world. I would never want to have to use an AK at over 200 meters, yes it is reliable but so are a few other weapons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #52 June 21, 2006 QuoteThe Ak is not superior in reliability tests accuracy, stopping power, over the FAL or its variants. Just remember to take your AK to the range and try shooting at 300 meter targets. Then tell me how much you like the 13.5" drop the bullet makes at that range when it was zeroed @200meters. Oh yeah that's right those are the preferred weapon of dead guys all over the world. I would never want to have to use an AK at over 200 meters, yes it is reliable but so are a few other weapons. I also thought the comparison was between the Ak & AR weapons. GIven that the original premise of the assault rifle was that almost all infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres. The FN-FAL was originally designed at the same time as the Enfield EM-2 for the .280 Enfield cartridge. With the US insistence on a larger cartridge (7.62 NATO) with their M-14 rifle, the FN-FAL was able to be redesigned around the larger cartridge while the EM-2 wasn't. The FN-FAL IS more powerful and longer ranged, both it and it's ammunition are far larger and heavier. A rifle & ammunition have to be carried by an infantryman. The lighter the rifle & ammunition are, the more ammunition which can be carried. The FN-FAL is unneccessarily powerful, large and cumbersome for infantry engagements. THat's why it's been abandoned by modern armies. Given the choice between an AR, AK & FN, the FN would be my absolute last choice. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #53 June 21, 2006 A carbine length (16.5")FAL is only 8.75lbs empty. It can be lighter if skeleton " X " type stock is used. unfortunately mine is around 14.5 lbs loaded but it is really accurate. 21" heavy barrel (not BULL BBL) bipod and 2.5x-10x-42mm MILDOT scope.(used it as a deer rifle as well) I wonder if anyone has ever sucessfully used an AK47 as a field expediant sniper weapon. (doubtful as sniping starts around 600 meters typically) BTW the FAL or any .308win platform is a real vehicle stopper. The type 69 Mod 0 ver. of the M249(minimi) saw is great but not nearly as powerful as a M240 or as I fondly remember the thing as the GPMG(gimpy) or MAG58. Anyone who ever carried a GPMG may have hated to, but that changed when you needed to eliminate a threat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #54 June 21, 2006 http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58ELITE&storeid=1&image=sa58ecp.gif http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58TAC&storeid=1&image=sa58mwtact.gif not your mums FAL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #55 June 21, 2006 It's not just the weapon, it's the ammunition. AS far as I can remember, for every 100 rounds of an FNs 7.62x51mm NATO carried, you can pack 140 rounds of an AKs 7.6sx39mm and a whopping 180 rounds of an ARs 5.56x445mm. In an infantry engagement, the number of bangs you can make is important. As for the folding stock on an FN, I'm pretty sure that you can't use the weapon with the stock folded. The mainspring is inside the stock - it certainly was on our SLRs. THey weighed in at TWICE the weight of an AR (15 or 18). Of course, all these arguments would have been long settled had it not been for Churchill caving in to American pressure to abandon the .280" (7x43mm) Enfield cartridge & the EM-2 http://world.guns.ru/assault/as59-e.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,808713,00.html Mike. Edited to add: One other thing... Don't even THINK about using an FN on automatic... Unless taking off backwards at high speed is a major part of your plan. It's frankly uncontrollable on automatic, which is why the British Army version was self-load only (not that this ever stopped us wedging a matchstick into the interruptor and fitting an LMG magazine on at least one occasion) Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #56 June 21, 2006 I agree but you have to admit there is a reason to have a M14 or FAL around in a patrol. no spray and pray, just one shot, one kill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #57 June 21, 2006 One "nice" thing about the SLR was it's ability to shoot THROUGH a house at close range! THe 7.62x51mm was better in a bolt-action rifle for accuracy. I found that the FN / SLR had a bit of a "throw" to it. which spoiled it's accuracy even with a SUIT-Sight. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #58 June 21, 2006 yeah issued rifles needed a bit of work on the wetstone and a turn cut from the trigger return spring at the least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,119 #59 June 21, 2006 >Did ya even read what I posted? That would make it hard to argue his point, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #60 June 21, 2006 Quote>The two go hand in hand. Hmm. So saying "we went to war to stabilize the middle east" would be very similar to saying "we went to war over oil?" Just because two things go hand in hand, does not necessarily mean that when one thing is done, that the reason is the second thing. Freedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #61 June 21, 2006 Quote"So the AK is superior? on what fucking planet does this occur?" On planet earth . The Ak is one of the most durable weapons ever built . They run and they run and they don't stop . I own full auto AK's and M-16's . With a M-16 as designed at the sixties along side a AK designed in the same era , the AK will run better and is less likely to fail during use . The M-16 will fail before a AK does . I have AK's that have survived 50-60,000 rounds and keep on going without cleaning , try that with a M-16 . Well, if durability is your only criteria for a firearm. Accuracy out to 600 yards would be another criteria. If you can't hit something with it, it doesn't matter how long you can shoot it without cleaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #62 June 21, 2006 QuoteIf we hadn't overthrown a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and installed in its stead a puppet hated by his own people, imagine what the situation in the middle east would now be like. That too was an absolutely good move at the time. The Shah gave us a stable relationship for a long time. And now look at the mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,119 #63 June 21, 2006 >does not necessarily mean that when one thing is done, that the >reason is the second thing. I agree. I didn't imply causation, merely similarity. >Freedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might >be another good reason. It would indeed. I hope they achieve that someday. It may take kicking the US out to get there, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #64 June 21, 2006 QuoteWell, if durability is your only criteria for a firearm. Accuracy out to 600 yards would be another criteria. If you can't hit something with it, it doesn't matter how long you can shoot it without cleaning. Durability and the ability to work despite abuse and a lack of care ARE valid criteria. More so depending on the environment you expect to fight in and the quality of training your troops receive. Mikhail Kalashnikov on being shown the L-85 at Enfield: "You must have very clever soldiers to work these." Now... WHY does an infantryman need accuracy to 600 meteres when almost all infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres? The M-14, AR-10, G3 & FN/SLR were good out to 600 metres. They were replaced with more suitable designs of infantry weapon. QuoteFreedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Are you advocating the US intervene to restore democracy to Venezuela? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #65 June 21, 2006 Quote QuoteFreedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Are you advocating the US intervene to restore democracy to Venezuela? Mike. ...or any of numerous other countries where people are oppressed. ehhh... Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #66 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf we hadn't overthrown a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and installed in its stead a puppet hated by his own people, imagine what the situation in the middle east would now be like. That too was an absolutely good move at the time. The Shah gave us a stable relationship for a long time. And now look at the mess. Sorry John... The only Good thing about the US installation of Reza Pahlevi in Iran is the giggle we get out of America having someone called Kermit install a "Puppet Government" Between 1949 & 1953 Iran was a secular democracy. Then the Iraqis voted "Socialist" and it was proposed to nationalise Iranian oil and actually charge oil companies for the privelege of oil extraction. HOW DARE THEY!!! This is what was so unacceptable at the time. Having given the Fuzzy-Wuzzys democracy, they were expected to "play nice" with it and still act like a colony! Such "land reforms" (like Castro's first reforms in Cuba), wouldn't even raise an eyebrow today. In fact, they're part of many companys policies in the form of access to share options or "profit-sharing" for the workforce. So... We took a secular democracy and created an absolute monarchy with a feckless playboy as its head. This degenerated into a brutal, oppressive regime until things snapped. Had we not done so, then Ayatollah Khomeni would never have been driven into exile, never become the rallying point of dissent, and would probably have only ever been famous for doing a nice wedding service! He certainly would never have developed his hatred of America. The Middle East really doesn't just hate us for fun. We continually preached "Democracy" and "Will of the people" to them while enforcing the exact opposite. If a burglar kept coming into your house and stealing stuff, would you welcome him in because he says that this time he's not going to steal anything?... Or would you just shoot the bastard based on what he did to you all the other times he came? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #67 June 21, 2006 I am going to have to ask you and your reasonable logic to leave this forum. Such things are not allowed here.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #68 June 21, 2006 QuoteI am going to have to ask you and your reasonable logic to leave this forum. Such things are not allowed welcome here. Then how would any of us learn? Still, I'm sure that the cry: "Left-Wing-Propaganda" will soon be heard. "A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices." ~Edward R. Murrow (1908 - 1965) Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #69 June 22, 2006 QuoteWHY does an infantryman need accuracy to 600 meteres when almost all infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres? Why would you want a rifle that's only good out to 200 meters, when your enemy has one that's good to 600 meters? I wouldn't want to be a sitting duck for 400 yards. I'll have a shoot-off with you, at 600 yards. You get an AK with a 20-round magazine and get to fire it full-auto at me. If you kill me, you win. If you miss, which I suspect you would, then you have to stand there and let me take one shot at you, just one, with my AR-15. Deal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #70 June 22, 2006 Quotethe USA exports more bullets than the next five largest exporters combined... it is still evident that the USA is very heavily involved in a large part of the worlds small arms trade. The U.S. sells arms to South Korea, but not North Korea. The U.S. sells arms to Taiwan, but not China. The U.S. sells arms to Japan, but not Russia. The U.S. sells arms to Israel, but not Syria. The U.S. sells arms to Saudi Arabia, but not Iran. Do you see a trend here? Would you prefer that we abandon all these allies and let them be overrun by those who would like to destroy them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,119 #71 June 22, 2006 >Do you see a trend here? Definitely! >The U.S. sells arms to Japan, but not Russia. We used to sell arms to Russia (our ally) but not Japan (our enemy.) >The U.S. sells arms to Saudi Arabia, but not Iran. We used to sell arms to Iran (our ally) but not Saudi Arabia (on our shit list.) One can conclude that selling weapons to foreign countries will eventually result in them being used against us. History has proven this happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #72 June 22, 2006 Hi John, QuoteWhy would you want a rifle that's only good out to 200 meters, when your enemy has one that's good to 600 meters? Because almost ALL modern infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres. Weapons such as the FN, M-14, M-1 SMLE, KAR98, etc which are comfortable tools out to 600 Metres+ are less effective than the AR or AK which are more controllable, lighter, and allow more ammunition to be carried. Hence, either the AK or the AR are better tools for an infantry engagement. My original argument (did you read it?) was against the FN-FAL and in favour of the AK and AR. I went on to say that the AR was a better weapon for well trained & disciplined troops while the AK was a better weapon for poorly trained troops such as the army Venezuela is likely to have! QuoteI wouldn't want to be a sitting duck for 400 yards. You wouldn't be! ALmost all infantry engagements take place at.... QuoteI'll have a shoot-off with you, at 600 yards. You get an AK with a 20-round magazine and get to fire it full-auto at me. If you kill me, you win. If you miss, which I suspect you would, then you have to stand there and let me take one shot at you, just one, with my AR-15. Deal? What is the relevance of recreating the battle of Spotsylvania in miniature? Remenber what happened to the American General there thanks to a supposedly "rubbish" British rifle?: "Why are you men cowering in trenches? They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." If the weapon you're comfortable with is the M-16, fine. I'm most used to the SLR, SMLE No.5 or LMG. Do you really want to do this? I'll take an ex (Brit) army LMG or SLR or No.5 and you stand 600 Metres away... It still doesn't make any of them as good an infantry weapon as the AK or AR. We could recreate a modern infantry engagement? Start 600 metres apart in rain, smoke & shit visibility. put 500 rounds through our weapons and drop them into muddy sandy water. Then we start. I figure to get to within 50 yards of you with a working AK by the time you've got your AR clear of the jam and stripped for cleaning! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #73 June 22, 2006 QuoteThis guy's quickly moving from funny little wack-job banana republic dictator to danger to his neighbors. If he's a socialist hero, then socialists are some ignorant motherfuckers! Yea, and it started happening just after he declared that he would sell oil in Euro. Funny that.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #74 June 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteCaptain Edmund Blackadder I am so embarrassed on your behalf ... This is the funniest failure-to-grasp-the-concept EVER. I thought it was pretty damn funny actually, not to mention acurate.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #75 June 22, 2006 THE ISSUE isn't that he's making some guns. THE ISSUE is his [G W Bush] continued push towards becoming a military dictator hell-bent on regional destabilization. It doesn't take any stretch of imagination at all to think that he'll be supplying his "revolutionary" friends in neighboring countries [Iran] soon. This is just one more straw on the back. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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miked10270 0 #55 June 21, 2006 It's not just the weapon, it's the ammunition. AS far as I can remember, for every 100 rounds of an FNs 7.62x51mm NATO carried, you can pack 140 rounds of an AKs 7.6sx39mm and a whopping 180 rounds of an ARs 5.56x445mm. In an infantry engagement, the number of bangs you can make is important. As for the folding stock on an FN, I'm pretty sure that you can't use the weapon with the stock folded. The mainspring is inside the stock - it certainly was on our SLRs. THey weighed in at TWICE the weight of an AR (15 or 18). Of course, all these arguments would have been long settled had it not been for Churchill caving in to American pressure to abandon the .280" (7x43mm) Enfield cartridge & the EM-2 http://world.guns.ru/assault/as59-e.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,808713,00.html Mike. Edited to add: One other thing... Don't even THINK about using an FN on automatic... Unless taking off backwards at high speed is a major part of your plan. It's frankly uncontrollable on automatic, which is why the British Army version was self-load only (not that this ever stopped us wedging a matchstick into the interruptor and fitting an LMG magazine on at least one occasion) Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #56 June 21, 2006 I agree but you have to admit there is a reason to have a M14 or FAL around in a patrol. no spray and pray, just one shot, one kill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #57 June 21, 2006 One "nice" thing about the SLR was it's ability to shoot THROUGH a house at close range! THe 7.62x51mm was better in a bolt-action rifle for accuracy. I found that the FN / SLR had a bit of a "throw" to it. which spoiled it's accuracy even with a SUIT-Sight. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #58 June 21, 2006 yeah issued rifles needed a bit of work on the wetstone and a turn cut from the trigger return spring at the least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #59 June 21, 2006 >Did ya even read what I posted? That would make it hard to argue his point, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #60 June 21, 2006 Quote>The two go hand in hand. Hmm. So saying "we went to war to stabilize the middle east" would be very similar to saying "we went to war over oil?" Just because two things go hand in hand, does not necessarily mean that when one thing is done, that the reason is the second thing. Freedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #61 June 21, 2006 Quote"So the AK is superior? on what fucking planet does this occur?" On planet earth . The Ak is one of the most durable weapons ever built . They run and they run and they don't stop . I own full auto AK's and M-16's . With a M-16 as designed at the sixties along side a AK designed in the same era , the AK will run better and is less likely to fail during use . The M-16 will fail before a AK does . I have AK's that have survived 50-60,000 rounds and keep on going without cleaning , try that with a M-16 . Well, if durability is your only criteria for a firearm. Accuracy out to 600 yards would be another criteria. If you can't hit something with it, it doesn't matter how long you can shoot it without cleaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #62 June 21, 2006 QuoteIf we hadn't overthrown a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and installed in its stead a puppet hated by his own people, imagine what the situation in the middle east would now be like. That too was an absolutely good move at the time. The Shah gave us a stable relationship for a long time. And now look at the mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #63 June 21, 2006 >does not necessarily mean that when one thing is done, that the >reason is the second thing. I agree. I didn't imply causation, merely similarity. >Freedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might >be another good reason. It would indeed. I hope they achieve that someday. It may take kicking the US out to get there, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #64 June 21, 2006 QuoteWell, if durability is your only criteria for a firearm. Accuracy out to 600 yards would be another criteria. If you can't hit something with it, it doesn't matter how long you can shoot it without cleaning. Durability and the ability to work despite abuse and a lack of care ARE valid criteria. More so depending on the environment you expect to fight in and the quality of training your troops receive. Mikhail Kalashnikov on being shown the L-85 at Enfield: "You must have very clever soldiers to work these." Now... WHY does an infantryman need accuracy to 600 meteres when almost all infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres? The M-14, AR-10, G3 & FN/SLR were good out to 600 metres. They were replaced with more suitable designs of infantry weapon. QuoteFreedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Are you advocating the US intervene to restore democracy to Venezuela? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #65 June 21, 2006 Quote QuoteFreedom from oppression and tyranny for 25 million people might be another good reason. Are you advocating the US intervene to restore democracy to Venezuela? Mike. ...or any of numerous other countries where people are oppressed. ehhh... Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #66 June 21, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf we hadn't overthrown a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and installed in its stead a puppet hated by his own people, imagine what the situation in the middle east would now be like. That too was an absolutely good move at the time. The Shah gave us a stable relationship for a long time. And now look at the mess. Sorry John... The only Good thing about the US installation of Reza Pahlevi in Iran is the giggle we get out of America having someone called Kermit install a "Puppet Government" Between 1949 & 1953 Iran was a secular democracy. Then the Iraqis voted "Socialist" and it was proposed to nationalise Iranian oil and actually charge oil companies for the privelege of oil extraction. HOW DARE THEY!!! This is what was so unacceptable at the time. Having given the Fuzzy-Wuzzys democracy, they were expected to "play nice" with it and still act like a colony! Such "land reforms" (like Castro's first reforms in Cuba), wouldn't even raise an eyebrow today. In fact, they're part of many companys policies in the form of access to share options or "profit-sharing" for the workforce. So... We took a secular democracy and created an absolute monarchy with a feckless playboy as its head. This degenerated into a brutal, oppressive regime until things snapped. Had we not done so, then Ayatollah Khomeni would never have been driven into exile, never become the rallying point of dissent, and would probably have only ever been famous for doing a nice wedding service! He certainly would never have developed his hatred of America. The Middle East really doesn't just hate us for fun. We continually preached "Democracy" and "Will of the people" to them while enforcing the exact opposite. If a burglar kept coming into your house and stealing stuff, would you welcome him in because he says that this time he's not going to steal anything?... Or would you just shoot the bastard based on what he did to you all the other times he came? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #67 June 21, 2006 I am going to have to ask you and your reasonable logic to leave this forum. Such things are not allowed here.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #68 June 21, 2006 QuoteI am going to have to ask you and your reasonable logic to leave this forum. Such things are not allowed welcome here. Then how would any of us learn? Still, I'm sure that the cry: "Left-Wing-Propaganda" will soon be heard. "A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices." ~Edward R. Murrow (1908 - 1965) Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #69 June 22, 2006 QuoteWHY does an infantryman need accuracy to 600 meteres when almost all infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres? Why would you want a rifle that's only good out to 200 meters, when your enemy has one that's good to 600 meters? I wouldn't want to be a sitting duck for 400 yards. I'll have a shoot-off with you, at 600 yards. You get an AK with a 20-round magazine and get to fire it full-auto at me. If you kill me, you win. If you miss, which I suspect you would, then you have to stand there and let me take one shot at you, just one, with my AR-15. Deal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #70 June 22, 2006 Quotethe USA exports more bullets than the next five largest exporters combined... it is still evident that the USA is very heavily involved in a large part of the worlds small arms trade. The U.S. sells arms to South Korea, but not North Korea. The U.S. sells arms to Taiwan, but not China. The U.S. sells arms to Japan, but not Russia. The U.S. sells arms to Israel, but not Syria. The U.S. sells arms to Saudi Arabia, but not Iran. Do you see a trend here? Would you prefer that we abandon all these allies and let them be overrun by those who would like to destroy them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #71 June 22, 2006 >Do you see a trend here? Definitely! >The U.S. sells arms to Japan, but not Russia. We used to sell arms to Russia (our ally) but not Japan (our enemy.) >The U.S. sells arms to Saudi Arabia, but not Iran. We used to sell arms to Iran (our ally) but not Saudi Arabia (on our shit list.) One can conclude that selling weapons to foreign countries will eventually result in them being used against us. History has proven this happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #72 June 22, 2006 Hi John, QuoteWhy would you want a rifle that's only good out to 200 meters, when your enemy has one that's good to 600 meters? Because almost ALL modern infantry engagements take place at under 200 metres. Weapons such as the FN, M-14, M-1 SMLE, KAR98, etc which are comfortable tools out to 600 Metres+ are less effective than the AR or AK which are more controllable, lighter, and allow more ammunition to be carried. Hence, either the AK or the AR are better tools for an infantry engagement. My original argument (did you read it?) was against the FN-FAL and in favour of the AK and AR. I went on to say that the AR was a better weapon for well trained & disciplined troops while the AK was a better weapon for poorly trained troops such as the army Venezuela is likely to have! QuoteI wouldn't want to be a sitting duck for 400 yards. You wouldn't be! ALmost all infantry engagements take place at.... QuoteI'll have a shoot-off with you, at 600 yards. You get an AK with a 20-round magazine and get to fire it full-auto at me. If you kill me, you win. If you miss, which I suspect you would, then you have to stand there and let me take one shot at you, just one, with my AR-15. Deal? What is the relevance of recreating the battle of Spotsylvania in miniature? Remenber what happened to the American General there thanks to a supposedly "rubbish" British rifle?: "Why are you men cowering in trenches? They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." If the weapon you're comfortable with is the M-16, fine. I'm most used to the SLR, SMLE No.5 or LMG. Do you really want to do this? I'll take an ex (Brit) army LMG or SLR or No.5 and you stand 600 Metres away... It still doesn't make any of them as good an infantry weapon as the AK or AR. We could recreate a modern infantry engagement? Start 600 metres apart in rain, smoke & shit visibility. put 500 rounds through our weapons and drop them into muddy sandy water. Then we start. I figure to get to within 50 yards of you with a working AK by the time you've got your AR clear of the jam and stripped for cleaning! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #73 June 22, 2006 QuoteThis guy's quickly moving from funny little wack-job banana republic dictator to danger to his neighbors. If he's a socialist hero, then socialists are some ignorant motherfuckers! Yea, and it started happening just after he declared that he would sell oil in Euro. Funny that.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #74 June 22, 2006 QuoteQuoteCaptain Edmund Blackadder I am so embarrassed on your behalf ... This is the funniest failure-to-grasp-the-concept EVER. I thought it was pretty damn funny actually, not to mention acurate.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #75 June 22, 2006 THE ISSUE isn't that he's making some guns. THE ISSUE is his [G W Bush] continued push towards becoming a military dictator hell-bent on regional destabilization. It doesn't take any stretch of imagination at all to think that he'll be supplying his "revolutionary" friends in neighboring countries [Iran] soon. This is just one more straw on the back. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
