warpedskydiver 0 #1 June 19, 2006 Chavez Kalashnikov Factory Plan Stirs Fear Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:54 PM EDT The Associated Press By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — President Hugo Chavez's plans to build the first Kalashnikov factory in South America are stirring fears Venezuela could start arming his leftist allies in the hemisphere with Russian assault rifles. Chavez denies such ambitions, saying his government bought 100,000 Russian-made AK-103 assault rifles and a license from Moscow to make Kalashnikovs and ammunition to bolster its defenses against "the most powerful empire in history" — the United States. Some political opponents and critics suspect Chavez, a former paratrooper, has other intentions, such as providing allies like Bolivia and Cuba with arms while forging an anti-Washington military alliance. "Our president has always had a warlike mentality, but now it appears this mentality is turning into a mission that could easily extend to other parts of Latin America," said William Ojeda, a presidential candidate who hopes to run against Chavez in the December election. Chavez has said "Venezuelan blood would run" if the United States tried to invade Cuba or Bolivia, though he has not said his government would provide them with weapons. The Bush administration also is concerned about Chavez's intentions. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Friday that Venezuela appeared to be in the midst of an "outsized military buildup for a country of that size and the nature of the threats" in the region. "They've already purchased 100,000 AK-103 assault rifles from Russia. So I'm not quite sure what else they might need a factory for," McCormack said. "It certainly raises serious questions about what their intentions are." The first 30,000 of those rifles have arrived in Venezuela, with the rest due by year's end. "If the president says he'll send Venezuelans to defend other Latin American nations, nobody should doubt that he's willing to send them weapons as part of his anti-imperialist vision," Ojeda said. Ojeda pointed out that Bolivia's new socialist president, Evo Morales, referred to Chavez as his "commander" during a recent ceremony marking the 78th anniversary of the birth of Ernesto "Che" Guevara, the revolutionary who was captured and executed in Bolivia 39 years ago. Chavez has provided a helicopter and pilots to Morales to ferry him around in the weeks ahead of a July vote for a constituent assembly that will rewrite the Bolivian constitution. Chavez vehemently denies that Venezuela's recent defense deals worth an estimated $2.7 billion constitute a military buildup or that he poses a threat to regional stability, as U.S. officials allege. His military advisers argue that Venezuela needs new rifles to replace outdated weapons such as Belgian-made FAL assault rifles — and to have enough guns for up to 2 million reservists.Quote So the AK is superior? on what fucking planet does this occur? Gen. Alberto Muller, a Chavez adviser, said the Kalashnikov factory would be able to produce 20,000 to 30,000 rifles a year. Construction is expected to begin within four to five years, he said, but Chavez may want to build it sooner. The Kalashnikov is currently manufactured in more than a dozen countries, including Egypt and Poland. Imitations are also widely produced. It is used by the armed forces of more than 50 countries as well as extremist groups from Afghanistan to Somalia. Muller said there are no plans to export guns because Venezuela will need all the rifles it produces. But defense analysts say corrupt officials in Venezuela's low-paid armed forces raise the possibility that weapons and ammunition could wind up in the wrong hands — a likely concern in neighboring Colombia, where leftist rebels have been battling the government for more than four decades. "Colombia will certainly be concerned about the ammunition factories to be built in Venezuela," said Anna Gilmour, a Latin American defense expert at the London-based Jane's Information Group. Unlike assault rifles, ammunition lacks serial numbers and is thus untraceable. Then there is the issue of Venezuelan civilian militias. "I understand the FALs are to be diverted to the new civilian militias, in which case they will be extremely hard to keep track of," and might be quickly resold in the country or abroad, Gilmour said. Military authorities have said strict controls, including serial numbers inscribed on each rifle, prevent them from being stolen or sold. Sure they will! on the ones they don't sell to the FARC Venezuela is also buying 15 Russian helicopters for $200 million, and Chavez said last week that his government would buy 24 Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets. McCormack said Washington will ask the Russians to reconsider the deals. After personally handing out new Kalashnikovs to soldiers Wednesday, Chavez inspected one of the AK-103s. "I don't miss with this rifle," he said, training the gun on the horizon. Quote the Horizon better not attack Venezuela or he will bust a cap in it's ass! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #2 June 20, 2006 This guy's quickly moving from funny little wack-job banana republic dictator to danger to his neighbors. If he's a socialist hero, then socialists are some ignorant motherfuckers!Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #3 June 20, 2006 QuoteThis guy's quickly moving from funny little wack-job banana republic dictator to danger to his neighbors. If he's a socialist hero, then socialists are some ignorant motherfuckers!So. A soveign nation doesn't have the right to manufacture or buy weapons. Fuck. If the USA had a puppet in office there we'd be giving them all they want til they didn't go w/ OUR policy then we'd just WHACK EM AND TRY TO INSTALL A NEW PUPPET GOVT.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #4 June 20, 2006 >to danger to his neighbors. Dude, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Surely you're not starting to believe all those "guns are dangerous" liberal gun-o-phobes! Guns are no more dangerous than bathtubs; just read the many informative threads here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #5 June 20, 2006 QuoteChavez Kalashnikov Factory Plan Stirs Fear Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:54 PM EDT The Associated Press By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — President Hugo Chavez's plans to build the first Kalashnikov factory in South America are stirring fears Venezuela could start arming his leftist allies in the hemisphere with Russian assault rifles.... Venezuela is also buying 15 Russian helicopters for $200 million, and Chavez said last week that his government would buy 24 Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets. McCormack said Washington will ask the Russians to reconsider the deals. If he's only making 20-30,000 AKs a year,I'd guess that at least the first 5 years production will go to self-defence, then to weapons replacement. It doesn't sound like an export operation. The AK103 IS a better infantry weapon than the FN-FAL and I can understand his military's desire to replace this ageing infantry weapon. As for the Russian helicopters & jets... Are these to replace the American ones he can't get parts for anymore? I recall that Chavez was vilified for getting rid of his F-16s a while ago. The US position kind of reminds me of Captain Edmund Blackadder in 1917 describing the British Army He'd Joined: "...back in the old days when the prerequisite of a British battle was that the enemy should, under no circumstances, carry guns... Even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight most were two feet tall and armed with dried grass." (The battle of Mboto Gorge) "...Ten thousand Watutsi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. When I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war (WWI). Fifteen years of military experience perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying 'do you do it doggy-doggy?' in Swahili, then suddenly four and a half million heavily armed Germans hove into view. It was a shock, I can tell you." After all, if the US has to go in and restore Venezuelan democracy by ousting a democratically elected leader, they don't want any of that "Resistance" stuff getting in the way, do they! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #6 June 20, 2006 QuoteCaptain Edmund Blackadder I am so embarrassed on your behalf ... This is the funniest failure-to-grasp-the-concept EVER. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #7 June 20, 2006 QuoteIf the USA had a puppet in office there we'd be giving them all they want til they didn't go w/ OUR policy then we'd just WHACK EM AND TRY TO INSTALL A NEW PUPPET GOVT. When ALL of your friends inside and outside of a country express their desire to be invaded to get rid of Chavez... it makes you wonder. When you talk to people from a country and they PREFER when they had a totalitarian dictator to the quack they have now... it makes you wonder. When Chavez villifies some of his best customers and raises cries of "power to the workers, to the poor" it makes you wonder. When a "democratically" elected president nationalizes many major companies and replaces the people who built these companies with his own, mildly retarded cronies... it makes you wonder. When a president allows Chinese military access to his armies... it makes you wonder. It doesn't take a puppet government to NOT be a fuckin' retard. Just wait.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #8 June 20, 2006 QuoteDude, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Surely you're not starting to believe all those "guns are dangerous" liberal gun-o-phobes! Guns are no more dangerous than bathtubs; just read the many informative threads here. Surely you're not spinning, distracting, or otherwise trying to put words in someone's mouth so you can make some kind of "point", are you? Nah, YOU'd never do that! If you don't think that Chavez's lunacy, military buildup, coziness with the Chinese, modifications to the constitution to keep himself in office, and extreme corruption are a problem... there's not much helping you. Good luck with your next "logical" deduction.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #9 June 20, 2006 >"...Ten thousand Watutsi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. Self-defense Against Fresh Fruit Sargeant: Right sir! Good evening, class. All (mumbling): Good evening. Sargeant: Where's all the others, then? All: They're not here. Sgt.: I can see that. What's the matter with them? All: Dunno. All: Perhaps they've got 'flu. Sgt.: Huh! 'Flu, eh? They should eat more fresh fruit. Ha. Right. Now, self-defence. Tonight I shall be carrying on from where we got to last week when I was showing you how to defend yourselves against anyone who attacks you with armed with a piece of fresh fruit. Palin: Oh, you promised you wouldn't do fruit this week. Sgt.: What do you mean? Jones: We've done fruit the last nine weeks. Sgt.: What's wrong with fruit? You think you know it all, eh? Palin: Can't we do something else? Idle (Welsh): Like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick? Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me! Now, the passion fruit. When your assailant lunges at you with a passion fruit... All: We done the passion fruit. Sgt.: What? Chapman: We done the passion fruit. Palin: We done oranges, apples, grapefruit... Jones: Whole and segments. Palin: Pomegranates, greengages... Chapman: Grapes, passion fruit... Palin: Lemons... Jones: Plums... Chapman: Mangoes in syrup... Sgt.: How about cherries? All: We did them. Sgt.: Red and black? All: Yes! Sgt.: All right, bananas. (All sigh.) Sgt.: We haven't done them, have we? Right. Bananas. How to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana. Now you, come at me with this banana. Catch! Now, it's quite simple to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana. First of all you force him to drop the banana; then, second, you eat the banana, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him 'elpless. Palin: Suppose he's got a bunch. Sgt.: Shut up. Idle: Suppose he's got a pointed stick. Sgt.: Shut up. Right now you, Mr Apricot. Chapman: 'Arrison. Sgt.: Sorry, Mr. 'Arrison. Come at me with that banana. Hold it like that, that's it. Now attack me with it. Come on! Come on! Come at me! Come at me then! (Shoots him.) Chapman: Aaagh! (dies.) Sgt.: Now, I eat the banana. (Does so.) Palin: You shot him! Jones: He's dead! Idle: He's completely dead! Sgt.: I have now eaten the banana. The deceased, Mr Apricot, is now 'elpless. Palin: You shot him. You shot him dead. Sgt.: Well, he was attacking me with a banana. Jones: But you told him to. Sgt.: Look, I'm only doing me job. I have to show you how to defend yourselves against fresh fruit. Idle: And pointed sticks. Sgt.: Shut up. Palin: Suppose I'm attacked by a man with a banana and I haven't got a gun? Sgt.: Run for it. Jones: You could stand and scream for help. Sgt.: Yeah, you try that with a pineapple down your windpipe. Jones: A pineapple? Sgt.: Where? Where? Jones: No I just said: a pineapple. Sgt.: Oh. Phew. I thought my number was on that one. Jones: What, on the pineapple? Sgt.: Where? Where? Jones: No, I was just repeating it. Sgt.: Oh. Oh. I see. Right. Phew. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #10 June 20, 2006 Never mind the Chinese looking dude in the camo fatigues, he is merely a Colombian FARC advisor monitoring the Panama Canal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #11 June 20, 2006 >Surely you're not spinning . . . Nope. Just want to see if you're consistent. Chavez is indeed an issue. He is the problem, not the gun factory. The world is awash in weapons; we make a large chunk of them. To many people here, though, they are only blameless when we make them. Almost seems as if the situations are altered to fit the politics of the issue: Guns used by US street gangs? No need to be alarmed or take any needless liberal actions; we've got plenty o' laws as it is. Guns don't just jump into people's hands and fire themselves! Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Gun-o-phobes want 'victim disarmament' zones. Bathtubs kill more people than guns. Guns made by Venezuela? Aaaaahhh! Bomb it! Be afraid, be very afraid! They're GUNS! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #12 June 20, 2006 Bill, Bill, Bill.... *sigh* THE ISSUE isn't that he's making some guns. THE ISSUE is his continued push towards becoming a military dictator hell-bent on regional destabilization. It doesn't take any stretch of imagination at all to think that he'll be supplying his "revolutionary" friends in neighboring countries soon. This is just one more straw on the back. I didn't think I'd have to spell that out for you. QuoteThe world is awash in weapons; we make a large chunk of them. BULLSHIT BILL! Show me how many crackpot regimes are using our weapons versus how many are using the Chinese and former Soviet supplied weapons. Get real, man. Think N.Korea is dangerous? Who sells them their shit? Think Iran is dangerous? Who sells them their shit? Think Chavez is dangerous? Who sells them thier shit? Think Islamic extremism is dangerous? What kind of weapons are they shooting in the air while babbling anti-western crap? Come on. But... you have your argument all planned out. Don't let me interrupt.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #13 June 20, 2006 >THE ISSUE isn't that he's making some guns. OK, so we agree. So a gun factory shouldn't stir any new fears. >Think Islamic extremism is dangerous? What kind of weapons are >they shooting in the air while babbling anti-western crap? The billions of dollars worth of weapons we gave them in the 80's. (Trivia question - who makes Stinger missiles?) >Show me how many crackpot regimes are using our weapons . . . Well, Venezuela is using ours. As I am sure you are aware, we supplied most of their military needs before Chavez took power; most of their military still has "made in US" stamped on it. But don't let facts stand in the way of a good argument. Just shout "BULLSHIT!" again and call it good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #14 June 20, 2006 QuoteOK, so we agree. So a gun factory shouldn't stir any new fears Other than the fact that it's a symptom of the growing disease? No. Just a sign. That's all. QuoteThe billions of dollars worth of weapons we gave them in the 80's. (Trivia question - who makes Stinger missiles?) Hahaha.... how many M-16's are they using? What other American weapons are they using? How many aircraft are those old Stingers shooting down? How's that for trivia, Bill. Your argument is dishonest at best, willfully blind at worse. QuoteWell, Venezuela is using ours. As I am sure you are aware, we supplied most of their military needs before Chavez took power; most of their military still has "made in US" stamped on it. When we were supplying Venezuela, they weren't run by a nut. In fact, they were a good ally and we had good relations. Notice how we stop supplying them once a crackhead gets in power and the Chinese and Russians are all to eager to supply them AFTER a crackhead comes into power? Do you REALLY think that the US is supplying "most" of the arms to the crackpots of the world? REALLY? QuoteBut don't let facts stand in the way of a good argument. Just shout "BULLSHIT!" again and call it good. You think quoting 2 outdated facts is proving a point? It IS bullshit, and you know it. You only have to open your eyes to see where most of the munitions and weapons come from, Bill... but I won't hold my breath.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #15 June 20, 2006 Then we agree, but you really seem to need something to argue about, so I'll play your game: >Do you REALLY think that the US is supplying "most" of the arms to > the crackpots of the world? REALLY? Are you so blind that you really believe that NONE of the terrorists throughout the world are using US weapons? (Yeah, I know you didn't say that, but that's the way you play the game!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,566 #16 June 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe world is awash in weapons; we make a large chunk of them. BULLSHIT BILL! Erm, Ok. Do you deny that the US is the largest exporter of armaments in the world?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #17 June 20, 2006 QuoteHahaha.... how many M-16's are they using? What other American weapons are they using? Err... That last video of Zarqawi? The one released to show he was well? The one where he was firing a M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon? Just thought I'd mention it. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #18 June 20, 2006 Yeah... and the poor fuckers couldnt even figure out how to use it.... I mean our weapons are SOOOOOO much more complicated than other countries stuff..... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #19 June 20, 2006 Quotethe US is the largest exporter of armaments in the world? It's not who is giving the most that is the problem. It's to whom they are being given. If you're giving them to nations that aren't threatening others, that's not a problem. If you're giving arms to crackpots that threaten others, that's a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #20 June 20, 2006 The VAST majority of Iraq's weaponry came from the USSR. Saddam signed an agreement with them back in the 70s saying that the USSR would be their armament supplier. Saddam also got a large amount of arms from France. They got less than 1% of their armaments from the USA. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #21 June 20, 2006 QuoteYeah... and the poor fuckers couldnt even figure out how to use it.... I mean our weapons are SOOOOOO much more complicated than other countries stuff..... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah... Zarqawi was certainly having problems with it, and it's certainly not THAT complicated (I've heard rumours that even American soldiers can use them!). THe other story going about at the time was that this was a propaganda video to show "the faithful" that he was alive and well after being wounded, which may explain his "ineptness". He certainly wasn't controlling the weapon well and appeared injured. I still think he looked a lot better in the last video he was in. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #22 June 20, 2006 QuoteErm, Ok. Do you deny that the US is the largest exporter of armaments in the world? Dollar amounts of sales to "decent" countries vs. amount of weapons sold to crackpots... don't be disingenuous. How many AK's would have to be sold to make up the cost of us selling Japan 1 f-16?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #23 June 20, 2006 QuoteErr... That last video of Zarqawi? The one released to show he was well? The one where he was firing a M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon? Don't suppose that came from a hummer that they blew up or something. It's a red-herring. The VAST majority of weapons in the middle east come in the form of russian design. They probably purposefully used the SAW to make people say, "THE US IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST ARMS PROLIFERATOR" or "SEE? THE US IS SUPPLYING THE BAD GUYS!" Looks like it worked, even though it is still bullshit.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 June 20, 2006 Quote Dollar amounts of sales to "decent" countries vs. amount of weapons sold to crackpots... don't be disingenuous. How many AK's would have to be sold to make up the cost of us selling Japan 1 f-16? define "decent" and "crackpot." Then show US consistency in selling to only "decent" ones. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #25 June 20, 2006 You're right. I DON'T suppose it was "lost" by The US Army. I bet it was bought from an arms dealer and the reason Zarqawi favoured it was that it was more controllable than an AK given his injured state at the time. Bear in mind that arms sales aren't political, they're... Just Business! Let's face it, H&K, BAe, Colt, etc... will sell to ANY middleman who makes a moderately convincing case that he represents a government not openly at war with the host country. To the best of my recollection, the AR-15/M16 & derivatives are manufactured in at least 8 countries. Meanwhile, the largest producer of the AK family of weapons (by a bloody big margin) is China! My point on the topic is that Venezuela manufacturing AK103s on the scale they have planned isn't going to make a difference worth a damn to the availability or supply of AKs or weapons in general. It's just another (pretty feeble) excuse to shout "BOGEYMAN!" Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
