kallend 2,146 #26 June 16, 2006 QuoteIf you're not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about. . Ah, the old Stalin motto! Or was it Himmler? Probably both.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #27 June 16, 2006 > Why do they need a SWAT Team armed with AK47's to serve a warrant on someone who failed to show up... Reminds me of a little boy being held by his uncle, when SWAT came a banging on the door with MP5s and sticking it in there face so the boy could be returned to his Communist Roots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 June 16, 2006 Quote> Why do they need a SWAT Team armed with AK47's to serve a warrant on someone who failed to show up... Reminds me of a little boy being held by his uncle, when SWAT came a banging on the door with MP5s and sticking it in there face so the boy could be returned to his Communist Roots. Or a certain compound in Waco. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #29 June 16, 2006 QuoteCops don't just kick-in doors... guns blazing! St. Louis city drug task force did. Several years back they kicked in a door unannounced and shot dead a women who jumped up from her couch. The drug task force reason for shooting is that they "feared for their lives". They were at the wrong apartment. No arrest was made that day and an innocent person laid dead. The police justified that their saftey comes first. If innocent people die they say it is just the cost of "the war on drugs" and blame it on drugs and not the legislation that has created the drug problem. Maybe you would prefer a KGB type of enforcement? Would your train of thought change if it was a member of your family that is shot dead due to draconian law enforcement. Draco's answer to all types of crime was death. I believe that Draco would be very proud of the US for enforcing his way of thinking."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #30 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteCops don't just kick-in doors... guns blazing! St. Louis city drug task force did. Several years back they kicked in a door unannounced and shot dead a women who jumped up from her couch. The drug task force reason for shooting is that they "feared for their lives". They were at the wrong apartment. No arrest was made that day and an innocent person laid dead. The police justified that their saftey comes first. If innocent people die they say it is just the cost of "the war on drugs" and blame it on drugs and not the legislation that has created the drug problem. Maybe you would prefer a KGB type of enforcement? Would your train of thought change if it was a member of your family that is shot dead due to draconian law enforcement. Draco's answer to all types of crime was death. I believe that Draco would be very proud of the US for enforcing his way of thinking. _____________________________________ I know, these things unfortunately, happen. I think, this is also an isolated incident. I don't think either, that we can generalize and and just give knee-jerk responses. I would like to think too, law enforcement continues to try to improve. You asked how I would feel if, this happened to a member of my family. I would feel horrible. I would also want as many facts in regard to the incident as I could get. Cops are under a lot of pressure from many directions. There is also an element of fear. I've seen it happen when cops hear a gunshot they 'react' in kind. Unfortunately, things like what you mentioned do happen. Until someone comes-up with a better idea... we have to deal with what we have. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #31 June 16, 2006 If you fear this new development then it must be due to some perceived wrong that the police intend to perpetuate using this new ruling. What alterior motive are you fearing the police have here; Not just more power...more power for what purpose? What insidious goal are they trying to attain with the use of the "no-knock rule". If I can see a specific evil that they will probably (not just possibly) use this for then I might be concerned but I am not going to panic every time the supreme court recognizes a shortcoming in a specific requirement and adjusts it in the interest of effective law enforcement. I have to agree with MasterRig in this one. There are too many laws giving the upper hand to criminals. Giving them 20 seconds allows too much time for them to flush evidence. With respect to the wrong house being targetted, I think if police kicked in my door with a SWAT team, I doubt a knock in advance would make me feel any better about it. If that happens allow the victims to take legal action after the fact if neccessary. If it is really a concern of abuse then would you accept the compromise suggested by GravityMaster whereby the police would have to demonstrate neccessity when requesting the judge turn their warrant into a no-knock warrant? Until I can see a real direct threat to the average citizen I think my default position will be to side with this ruling. Richards My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #32 June 16, 2006 This thread seems to corelate to the "war on drugs" as most home searches are for illegal drugs, Mostly marijuana. From my understanding, by listening to family members who are police officers and hearing other police officers, it is not them but, the politicians who want to continue this war at all cost. They are only the tools used by the politicians who claim high morals. More than 60 billion dollars a year with more than half of that going directly to the "war on marijuana" is wasted with no results. War, it seems that politicians just love that word. From what I have garnered is that a high number of LEO's would rather end this war and put all drugs in control of the government and lead addicts down a path of rehabilitation instead of prison where they recieve very little help (drugs are widely available behind bars) and most often come out worst than when they went in. Those who want help should get it. The majority of addicts would love to be clean. Those who don't, well, nothing can be done for them. By arresting and locking up addicts they are trapped in a revolving door that depleates funds and encourages resentment. A war that has lasted for more than 70 years and has had zero results is crazy. A lesson could be extracted from this infamous quote of Albert Einstein; " To do the same thing over and over and to expect that the results will change, is insanity." No new tactic that is only a blurred mirror image of the last will not bring about change but, lead us only further into the muck. http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #33 June 16, 2006 Dictionary of Cultural Literacy(3rd ed.): POLICE STATE-any nation who's rulers use the police or the military to maintain order.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #34 June 16, 2006 QuoteDictionary of Cultural Literacy(3rd ed.): POLICE STATE-any nation who's rulers use the police or the military to maintain order. __________________________________ O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #35 June 16, 2006 Quote O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Not quite yet. Emphasis on yet, but holy crap it's getting closer every day. Unless the asshats in Congress are tossed out it's going to be even closer. Right now their main weapon is fear of "others", soon it will be fear of ourselves.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #36 June 16, 2006 QuoteIf you're not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about. I get this icky, trembly sensation up my spine every time someone posts this sentence. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #37 June 16, 2006 QuoteUnder the old law, what do you think the homeowner was doing in the 20 seconds between the time the police knocked on the door, and the time they entered? It might have been a better decision if the court had recognized the need for a "no knock" warrant only under special circumstances where the police would have to convince a Judge that evidence would be destroyed if they had to delay entry. Until someone in the Justice dept. decided that going to the judge for a warrant was unnecessary and the delay was a threat to national security, oh....and doesn't bother to notify anyone of the change. But that would NEVER happen would it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #38 June 16, 2006 Yet you say "don't let the door hit you on the way out" when I talk about bailing as if you don't understand my motivations. ---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #39 June 16, 2006 QuoteYet you say "don't let the door hit you on the way out" when I talk about bailing as if you don't understand my motivations. I read what you wrote. It sounds like an odd world view accompanied by an extremely wimpy solution. But that's your perogative -- enjoy the greener pastures elsewhere. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #40 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuote O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Not quite yet. Emphasis on yet, but holy crap it's getting closer every day. Unless the asshats in Congress are tossed out it's going to be even closer. Right now their main weapon is fear of "others", soon it will be fear of ourselves. _______________________________________ I still think, we need to vote all of them, every congressman and Senator especially Ted Kennedy, out of office, get rid of the damned lobbyists and just start over. I haven't quite reached 'the sky is falling' point, just yet. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #41 June 16, 2006 This whole thing has just pissed me off. So now, if police have search warrants, they can just bust down your door with no warning. The caveat to all this was laid down long before this came about. Last time I checked, with Patriot Act provisions, law enforcement can bypass that whole "warrant" thing by saying you are doing something that warrants immediate attention or whatever. So in reality it is becoming that now, the police can bust down your door... because they think you are doing something wrong. Well if you're not doing anything criminal than you have nothing to hide, you say. But what happens when the liberties you have to speak out against certain policies of government become considered criminal? My friends, THAT is when you will realize "Wow. Maybe we shouldn't have let them have all that power." I'm not saying anyone is planning this shit. I'm saying it's classic that they are taking away our protection and we're letting them have it. What will we do about our liberties when they come for those?---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #42 June 16, 2006 For one thing, the cops don't just kick-in doors because they 'think' you 'might' be doing something wrong. They know as well as you and I about our constitutional rights. With 'evidence' that you are doing something wrong, they get a warrant. To get a warrant, the cops have to have damned good proof. Depending on the offense, an attempt to serve the warrant 'peacefully' is tried. If, that doesn't work... down goes the front door. All this 'knee-jerk' response to things set down by our Supreme Court gets a bit out of hand. It's a lot like 'chicken little'. We need to step back research it all and then go from there. Just imagine thise country without any cops at all... none! Wouldn't that be great?Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #43 June 16, 2006 Not saying I'm not overreacting. But the point is this is how it's been for the past 4 years. Little things here and there that by themselves, appear to be no threat. But it's just like making a stone statue. Chip, chip, chipping away.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #44 June 16, 2006 I understand. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #45 June 16, 2006 Quote I know, these things unfortunately, happen. I think, this is also an isolated incident. I don't think either, that we can generalize and and just give knee-jerk responses. I would like to think too, law enforcement continues to try to improve. Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a founding principle. One incompatible with 'isolated incidents' of killing unrelated citizens in a rushed, botched, kick down door search. The other concern I have is for the cops themselves. I'm never going to convict a defendent that killed an officer that charged in like that. Given no warning, people don't have to determine if invaders are 1) claiming to be police and 2) really are police. They have a right to self defense in their home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #46 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteDictionary of Cultural Literacy(3rd ed.): POLICE STATE-any nation who's rulers use the police or the military to maintain order. __________________________________ O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Chuck Illinois, and I know several cops that would say the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #47 June 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDictionary of Cultural Literacy(3rd ed.): POLICE STATE-any nation who's rulers use the police or the military to maintain order. __________________________________ O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Chuck Illinois, and I know several cops that would say the same. ________________________________________ Illinois? I'm not saying a word! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #48 June 17, 2006 QuoteQuote I know, these things unfortunately, happen. I think, this is also an isolated incident. I don't think either, that we can generalize and and just give knee-jerk responses. I would like to think too, law enforcement continues to try to improve. Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a founding principle. One incompatible with 'isolated incidents' of killing unrelated citizens in a rushed, botched, kick down door search. The other concern I have is for the cops themselves. I'm never going to convict a defendent that killed an officer that charged in like that. Given no warning, people don't have to determine if invaders are 1) claiming to be police and 2) really are police. They have a right to self defense in their home. ____________________________________ I can see that and understand it. Chuckl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #49 June 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDictionary of Cultural Literacy(3rd ed.): POLICE STATE-any nation who's rulers use the police or the military to maintain order. __________________________________ O.K. Is this where you feel this country is... a 'police state'? Chuck Illinois, and I know several cops that would say the same. ________________________________________ Illinois? I'm not saying a word! Chuck Don't knock Illinois! The Top Quark was discovered here.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #50 June 17, 2006 QuoteDon't knock Illinois! The Top Quark was discovered here. Being that it is the biggest of the six, how could they have missed it... sheeeesh even Ray Charles could had found it LOL LOL LOL Just messing with ya"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
