Killing Innocents to Frame the Enemy...

[jakee 1,595]

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Suppose this would be as big an issue if they did not have a willing,drooling anti US media to report it?

Israel and the media

I wonder when criticising Israel became anti US?

I wonder when saying anything remotely critical of current policy became being anti US?

I wonder if it was when Clinton left office?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

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Suppose this would be as big an issue if they did not have a willing,drooling anti US media to report it?

Israel and the media

I wonder when criticising Israel became anti US?

I wonder when saying anything remotely critical of current policy became being anti US?

I wonder if it was when Clinton left office?

OOooohhhhh, nice twist and spin here.

I have never said that criticising Isreal is anti US Strike One


I have never said being critical of the current admid is anti US Strike Two

What the hell does Clinton have to do with this
Strike Three Your Out

My comment in this thread was aimed at the media and polotitions trying and convicting the men charged here and have in many cases used set up senarios to spread their crap. Add to this that when it comes out that the charges were a set up, lie or proven to be false the media stays silent.

It seems to me you want to believe the worst about the current admin and the military so you might be blinding yourself to what is really happening.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

I thought I'd just note that there was a chap on BBC Radio 4 last night from the Pentagon who said that based on the height of the wounds and the composition of the shrapnel recovered from the bodies/site which he'd seen, he had concluded the family was killed by a 155mm howitzer shell and definitely not a landmine.

...But I guess Pentagon Battle Damage Assessment Teams probably don't know that much.

[Trent 0]

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For shame! You are DOUBTING our government? I suppose you want the terrorists to win, eh? And they call Skyrad an america-hater . . .

Trust but verify, right? Do you prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the jihadis? Not much I can say to that I guess. Your point is weak, and the argument is even weaker. But if it makes you feel better, put words in my mouth then argue against them. It'll keep you busy.

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Nope. More along the lines of "attend to the beam in your own eye before worrying about the mote in your brother's." Was in a pretty good book, IIRC. The world is going to laugh at us if we start claiming that others are misleading people for political purposes. We did so and then killed tens of thousands of innocent people; we should not be lecturing others on honesty.

You like that book, huh? Surprising.
I also didn't take you for an isolationist really. By your rationale... we should fix everything at home before lending a helping hand, right?

Anyway, having set up situations where the sole purpose is propaganda to make us look bad needs to be called out if it happens... especially when the lives of our soldiers accused are on the line. At this level, it doesn't matter what our government's done... these soldiers deserve to have the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Oh, hello again!

[mnealtx 0]

It doesn't take much to make a 155mm shell into a boobytrap/landmine... just ask anyone that's served in Iraq.

The largest gun I've been able to find attributed to any Israeli ship is the 76mm Oto-Melara.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Trent 0]

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I thought I'd just note that there was a chap on BBC Radio 4 last night from the Pentagon who said that based on the height of the wounds and the composition of the shrapnel recovered from the bodies/site which he'd seen, he had concluded the family was killed by a 155mm howitzer shell and definitely not a landmine.

...But I guess Pentagon Battle Damage Assessment Teams probably don't know that much.

Haven't seen or heard anything like that here yet. You'd think CNN would be all over it. We'll wait and see... and HOPE that IF it's true... that it wasn't on purpose. I still have a hard time believing that Israel has a vested interest in randomly killing innocent people like that.

EDIT:
Then there's that...(from mnealtx)

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The largest gun I've been able to find attributed to any Israeli ship is the 76mm Oto-Melara.

Oh, hello again!

[mr2mk1g 10]

I very much doubt the hit was purposeful even if it was an Israeli round. IF it was a round from an Israeli howitzer I presume the family just got unlucky enough to find themselves on the tail end of the salvo that was sent over.

The guy named the make of howitzer used last night too in addition to the stuff he was saying about his analysis of the shrapnel. Was a US gun M-something I can't be arsed to check up on, land based.

I have to stick a quick correction in too - the chap was with the Pentagon for 7 years in a Battle Damage Assessment Team working in the Gulf, Iraq and the Balkans but is now with a civi organization. His statements are up on the BBC at least so I don't know why CNN haven't picked it up yet:

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the Palestinians' injuries were not consistent with a blast taking place beneath them.
"It has been suggested by some that the family was killed by a land mine, and this is patently not the case," Mark Garlasco said.
"All of the evidence is pointing to a 155mm shell as having killed and injured the Palestinians here on the beach," he said.
"My assessment [is] that it's likely that this was incoming artillery fire that landed on the beach and was fired by the Israelis from the north of Gaza."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074792.stm

[mr2mk1g 10]

Here's a good report on this guys findings: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article994070.ece

I like the presentation of his findings as he's completely open to the suggestion that he can't rule out certain possablities - just that in his experiance the evidence points away from them.

[billvon 3,117]

>You like that book, huh? Surprising.

It's quite a good book, when read for what it is.

>I also didn't take you for an isolationist really. By your rationale... we
>should fix everything at home before lending a helping hand, right?

Not at all. Perhaps you were answering someone else.

>Anyway, having set up situations where the sole purpose is
> propaganda to make us look bad needs to be called out if it
> happens...

I agree. We should also stop creating false situations to make others look bad, so that people take us seriously when we point that out in others. As it is, we have about as much credibility in that area as Syria has in the human-rights area.

[mnealtx 0]

I thought it was originally attributed to a naval shelling? My mistake, sorry!!

Simple way to stop it.. have the Palestines quit firing rockets from backyards!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Darius11 12]

According to the article the rockets were fired as a reaction to the deaths not befor.

I know many will look for any excuse to blame this on the Palestinians but come on. Even when the evidence is showing the Palestinians were telling the truth and the Israelis are lying people try to find another angle so they can blame the Palestinians.

Where have i seen this befor.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rushmc 23]

we have about as much credibility in that area as Syria has in the human-rights area.

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Getting desperate are we?

What a BS statement

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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[rushmc 23]

Where have i seen this befor.

[billvon 3,117]

>What a BS statement

You think the US has much credibility left?

We don't torture people. Except for the times we do torture people. And those secret prisons in other countries where we send prisoners to be tortured. And except for that signing statement that lets Bush torture people if we want. And except for a few 'bad apples' who torture prisoners for no good reason. But other than that, we don't - and we condemn anyone who does!

We base our decisions on solid evidence. Except that stuff about WMDs in Iraq. And except that Gulf of Tonkin thing. And never mind those 9/11 warnings we disregarded. But Iran is a serious threat, and anyone who disagrees with us is a fool!

We're the antithesis of terrorism throughout the world. Except in Haditha. And in My Lai. And those Iraqi government death squads. And except for our support of the Mujahideen. And except for those tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis we killed. (Par for the course, you know; it's war.) And we will stamp out any country that supports terrorism!

Like I said before, we SHOULD be against torture and terrorism, and we SHOULD enlist other countries to support us in our efforts. Best clean our own house first, though, before we start bitching about how other people's are dirty.

[Trent 0]

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Like I said before, we SHOULD be against torture and terrorism, and we SHOULD enlist other countries to support us in our efforts. Best clean our own house first, though, before we start bitching about how other people's are dirty.

Guess some people feel that there is a collective house in "the world" and some "rooms" need to be cleaned out first since they're the dirtiest. But that's just some people. Of course... we could wait until we're perfect and have no issues before doing what may be right... but then we'd ALWAYS be waiting.

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

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According to the article the rockets were fired as a reaction to the deaths not befor.

if you mean the several dozens in the past few days, you may be right. these rockets never stopped, in the past few months they kept falling down every few days, after awhile its just now "exciting new" so you dont hear about it.

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Even when the evidence is showing

what evidence?
Israel didn't say at once it wasn't an israeli shell. it took several days of investigation in which the common knowledge and what will be remembered is that its israel's fault. just like the Muhamed A dura incident and when a few months ago a truck full of rockets blew up and killed almost 30 people and immediately Hamas blamed israel (back then the PA, before Hamas took over it exposed the fact that israel had nothing to do with it)

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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The Israeli investigation concluded that the possibility any of the six artillery shells fired from the gunboat could have landed on the beach was "almost nil," the sources said.

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The IDF report cites several factors that led to the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a mine planted on the beach by Palestinian militants, the sources said.

This info is from the artical.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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The Israeli investigation concluded that the possibility any of the six artillery shells fired from the gunboat could have landed on the beach was "almost nil," the sources said.

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The IDF report cites several factors that led to the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a mine planted on the beach by Palestinian militants, the sources said.

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This info is from the artical.

hmm, and your point is?
the israeli investigation was thorough and it took several days in which it took all of the heat.
are the conclusions wrong? could be.
it doesn't change the fact that this area is used for lunching rockets and as such is considered a combat zone. I promise you that if there will be no rockets from gaza, there will be no response. sadly, you can't say the opposite.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 3,117]

>Guess some people feel that there is a collective house in "the
> world" and some "rooms" need to be cleaned out first since they're
> the dirtiest.

Best tend to your own room first. You wouldn't like it if someone came in and threw out all your stuff because they thought your room could be a bit cleaner.

> Of course... we could wait until we're perfect . . .

We'll never be perfect. But we can do a hell of a lot better than we're doing now. Why waste energy bitching about other people when we could use that energy to clean ourselves up?

[Darius11 12]

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I promise you that if there will be no rockets from gaza, there will be no response. sadly, you can't say the opposite.

You say I can’t say the opposite? What is the opposite?

The Israelis give all the land back to the Palestinian people? I am sure if they give back all the land there would be no reason to attack the Israelis.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Trent 0]

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Best tend to your own room first. You wouldn't like it if someone came in and threw out all your stuff because they thought your room could be a bit cleaner.

We could play "dirty house" analogies all day long... but when my roommate's room is so filthy and infested that it leaks into the common areas and even into my room from time to time... bet your ass I'll do something about it. Even if I, hypocritically, have a few pairs of socks and some boxers on my floor.

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We'll never be perfect. But we can do a hell of a lot better than we're doing now. Why waste energy bitching about other people when we could use that energy to clean ourselves up?

So I guess you won't be posting in here anymore? Shame.

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

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The Israelis give all the land back to the Palestinian people? I am sure if they give back all the land there would be no reason to attack the Israelis.

if your only condition for peace and quiet is that israel will cease to exist and give the whole land to the palestinians than there will never be peace.

there is a big difference between having a right and a claim for this land (and both sides do) and accepting the fact that we both have to live here and compromise.
there is no reason for rockets to fly out of gaza now that israel is no longer there, but if they chose to fire and do it from within civilian areas, they can't complain when these areas get hit in response.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Royd 0]

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We'll never be perfect. But we can do a hell of a lot better than we're doing now. Why waste energy bitching about other people when we could use that energy to clean ourselves up?

Hmmm!