Anyone still think that the war wasn't planned pre-9/11?

[idrankwhat 0]

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buldozing the home of a suicide bomber is one of the very few things you can do in order to make a suicide bomber rethink his actions. and as for buldozing house with innocent people inside, thats simply not true.

That's the news I was reading a few years ago. And it wasn't just homes of militants, it was homes of militants family members and on top of that, bulldozing homes simply because they *could* be used to provide cover for militant attacks. Quite a bit of it was in the foreign press, with lots of pictures. I really took notice at the time because that's when they ran over that young female protester from Seattle.

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Well, we are actually doing that very thing right now in Iraq

that's the US, not the UN and the US has an interest in Iraq that goes beyond the well being of the poor average Iraqi.
Again, congratulations. You're one of the few who recognizes this. If I do it here I get called "anti-American" or "America hater".

and honestly, i don't think an American soldier would or should risk his life here.

You might be surprised. I could be wrong but I dont' think so. And while I'm not a strong proponent of using our military as a police force or nation builder, I see the Israel/Palestine conflict as one that is having serious ramifications on our national security in foreign policy. If we can help solve this issue then I think it will be to our benefit as well.

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Well, they can't have it all and they need to understand that

but what happens if they don't? you keep saying peace talks is the way and I agree. but what do you do if you have no one to talk to?

They need to be actively engaged and I put much of that responsibility on our State Dept. and President. Sadly, I don't expect much hope for progress until at least 2009 at the very earliest. You can't be an effective moderator if you are also an unblinking advocate for one side

[falxori 0]

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My understanding is that the UN never recognized that the border disappeared

the border didn't disappear and Israel has not declared that it did.
anyway, i don't consider the UN to be a nuetral body in this conflict with the automatic arab/muslim majority (and thats the real reason why israel is the most popular country in its decisions) the US veto is pretty much what keeps a shred of dignity for this organization.

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Maybe they will be when it's settled but they are significant Israeli settlements residing in occupied Palestinian territory

one can describe your "occupied Palestinian territory" as liberated israeli land. the arguement of whos land is it is as old and this region itself.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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[bulldozing homes simply because they *could* be used to provide cover for militant attacks/quote]
if you decide to blow yourself up there isn't much one can do in order to stop you. if you know that your house will be destroyed and your loved ones will suffer too, won't you reconsider?
facts prove that some did, and in some other cases family members reported about it.
and if you use a house as cover to shoot from, i see no problem with buldozing it.
at least you're not claiming Israel destroys houses just as a scare tactic like some...

***Again, congratulations. You're one of the few who recognizes this. If I do it here I get called "anti-American" or "America hater"

I didnt say the interest in Iraq was a wrong one.

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I see the Israel/Palestine conflict as one that is having serious ramifications on our national security in foreign policy

I don't think that US supporting israel is the main/only cause for that and even if it is, i think its wrong to desert your allies just because someone else doesnt like it.

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You can't be an effective moderator if you are also an unblinking advocate for one side

what's wrong with being an advocate for one side if you share the same values and believe this side is right?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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My understanding is that the UN never recognized that the border disappeared

the border didn't disappear and Israel has not declared that it did.
Your quote: "there is no "official border". Israel has controlled the west bank since 1967"

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Maybe they will be when it's settled but they are significant Israeli settlements residing in occupied Palestinian territory

one can describe your "occupied Palestinian territory" as liberated israeli land. the arguement of whos land is it is as old and this region itself.
This is all starting to prove the point that I've been trying to make. That Israel isn't officially laying claim to the occupied territories but it's pretty much claiming much of the land. The gray area about whether or not the green line is the official border or the "liberated Israeli land" concept etc. I fully understand that this dispute has about 2000 years of repetitive history. Even the Christians came in to spice up the debate by claiming it a few centuries ago. My question is, when will people quit repeating this history?
Well, we're not going to make much headway in this debate because I consider the green line the official border right now. Israel has the upper hand militarily and financially so it will certainly gain more land in any peace negotiations, if/whenever that happens. Unfortunately, until it does, the "cease fire" will continue to kill hundreds/thousands of people and our country will continue to finance that violence to the tune of $8-12 million per day.

[idrankwhat 0]

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[bulldozing homes simply because they *could* be used to provide cover for militant attacks/quote]
if you decide to blow yourself up there isn't much one can do in order to stop you. if you know that your house will be destroyed and your loved ones will suffer too, won't you reconsider?
Probably not. It will probably reinforce the resolve that they need to continue to resist their oppressor

facts prove that some did, and in some other cases family members reported about it.
and if you use a house as cover to shoot from, i see no problem with buldozing it.
at least you're not claiming Israel destroys houses just as a scare tactic like some...
No, just creating a buffer zone regardless of who lives in those houses

***I see the Israel/Palestine conflict as one that is having serious ramifications on our national security in foreign policy

I don't think that US supporting israel is the main/only cause for that and even if it is, i think its wrong to desert your allies just because someone else doesnt like it.
I'm not of the mind to continue to support allies who do things that I don't approve of. I fully expect others to feel the same way about us. That's why I'm not surprised to hear Bush getting badgered by the international community over Guantanamo. They need to keep us in line.

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You can't be an effective moderator if you are also an unblinking advocate for one side

what's wrong with being an advocate for one side if you share the same values and believe this side is right?
Not everyone does think one side is right. I think both sides are dealing with this poorly

[falxori 0]

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Your quote: "there is no "official border". Israel has controlled the west bank since 1967"

and i stand by it. the green line may become the future border and it may not (most likely it will be close to it) but it will be decided when there are peace talks.

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when will people quit repeating this history?

when the palestinians will realize and accept that they can't have it all, like most israelis have in recent years.

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Israel has the upper hand militarily and financially so it will certainly gain more land in any peace negotiations, if/whenever that happens.

having a superior army may mean gaining more land by war, i don't see why it "certainly" means israel will gain more land in any peace process.
Israel has a lot more to lose in war, Israel wants peace and is willing to go far by giving up lands that are historically ours. but it cannot and will not go all the way and cease to exist.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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No, just creating a buffer zone regardless of who lives in those houses

here's an idea, stop using these houses as cover, and how about stop shooting all together? the minute civilian areas are used for war activities, they can no longer be considered civilians. the Geneva convention clearly states that all war activities must be seperated from civilians and that militants must be clearly marked by uniform and cannot hide within civilians.

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I'm not of the mind to continue to support allies who do things that I don't approve of

fine, use your right to vote and vote for someone who thinks like you.

as fun (and important) as this debate has been, tomorrow i'm leaving for two weeks in Ireland so it may take longer to reply...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Israel wants peace and is willing to go far by giving up lands that are historically ours. but it cannot and will not go all the way and cease to exist.

The lands historically belong to both of you. And what you're claiming to be willing to give up is not currently recognized by the world community as being yours to give based on the 1967 border issue. That's pretty much where I think this conversation is going to end since we both have differing views on who the land "belongs" to and I don't see either of us changing our minds. You're looking at it as historically yours with some justification by the result of the 1967 war. I'm looking at it as what is historically belonging to both parties as well as "what's on the official world map" at the moment. Let's just hope that Pat Robertson doesn't decide to start another Crusade and throw a third party into the mix. And by the way, good call for you guys to put an end to his amusement park over there. I think he's cheapened his God enough.
Have fun in Ireland and be careful. Christians are know for fighting even themselves over there.

[hairyjuan 0]

anything that divides us is for the purpose of conquering us




http://www.The New Enlightenment.com

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[kallend 2,114]

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You are right, You have been down this road before and you refuse to see the facts..........

irony score 10.0/10.0

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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