Immigration...

[yjumpinoz 0]

I just had a discussion with a co-worker who originally came here from Viet Nam, and it really made me think of the immigration issue. I won't go into all of the details, but it was quite a story. He had his wife and two toddlers on a small boat with 62 other people trying to flee the communists for 35 days. There were many disgusting stories. They also were rejected by several countries and even drug back to sea. The moral is that he and his family made it to the US legally despite many life threatening obstacles. Why do we allow people to break the law to enter when there are many who would risk life and limb for a chance to be a citizen legally?

[narcimund 0]

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Why do we allow people to break the law to enter when there are many who would risk life and limb for a chance to be a citizen legally?

Can you explain the connection between these two ideas?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[yjumpinoz 0]

In the past people have been so desperate to leave oppressed governments that they would risk everything to get here and do it legally. We now want to consider rewarding those who have broken the law to enter the country.

[Nightingale 0]

How did they manage to go through all the US immigration procedures when they were on a boat?

Or did they get here and then ask for amnesty? If so, they came here without permission of our government, but our government decided to be nice and grant them the right to stay anyway because of their situation.

[Andy9o8 2]

You're late. We've already done "immigration" in here ad nauseum, and we've all shot our wads.

[yjumpinoz 0]

They landed finally in Malaysia and then went through the paperwork to come to US and become citizens. I know this has been talked about too much, but hearing his story today made me think how much we take for granted.

[skydyvr 0]

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You're late. We've already done "immigration" in here ad nauseum, and we've all shot our wads.

This statement is silly and arrogant.

In fact, these forums are a rolling, repeating wave of discussion on every topic. Feel free not to join a topic you're not interested in.

. . =(_8^(1)

[narcimund 0]

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In the past people have been so desperate to leave oppressed governments that they would risk everything to get here and do it legally. We now want to consider rewarding those who have broken the law to enter the country.

What about people who are so desperate to leave oppressive governments that they would risk everything (including breaking the law) to get here now?

If desperation and dire circumstances are the important part, I'm sure we could find lots of equally heartbreaking examples on the other side of the "legal paperwork" question.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[yjumpinoz 0]

I think its about the law. Does it excuse stealing food if you are hungry? I would steal food to feed the family if I had no other way, but I would expect punishment for breaking the law.

[narcimund 0]

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I think its about the law. Does it excuse stealing food if you are hungry? I would steal food to feed the family if I had no other way, but I would expect punishment for breaking the law.

Would you turn yourself in?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Andy9o8 2]

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You're late. We've already done "immigration" in here ad nauseum, and we've all shot our wads.

This statement is silly and arrogant.

Now that really hurtz.
You're just saying that cuz you hate me from - you know, that other thread.
<<>
Oh God, he hates me.
<>

[Andy9o8 2]

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I think its about the law. Does it excuse stealing food if you are hungry? I would steal food to feed the family if I had no other way, but I would expect punishment for breaking the law.

Would you turn yourself in?

Even Jean Valjean didn't turn himself in; he kept escaping, and ultimately served 19 years for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his niece. Of course, in the end he did offer to surrender to Javert, who committed suicide out of torment.
I'm not digressing, am I?

[yjumpinoz 0]

No, but if I was caught I would not expect amnesty

[rehmwa 2]

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No, but if I was caught I would not expect amnesty

well, you should. and emergency room health care and social security benefits, etc

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[narcimund 0]

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No, but if I was caught I would not expect amnesty

So if I understand you right, if you were in a desperate situation you'd break the law to survive then hide your crimes from the authorities.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I would too. And that's exactly what the people we're talking about are doing (or at least some of them.)

So tell me again what it is that they're doing wrong MORALLY.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Gravitymaster 0]

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No, but if I was caught I would not expect amnesty

So if I understand you right, if you were in a desperate situation you'd break the law to survive then hide your crimes from the authorities.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I would too. And that's exactly what the people we're talking about are doing (or at least some of them.)

So tell me again what it is that they're doing wrong MORALLY.

Coming to the US only for the purpose of getting a better paying job is hardly a desparate situation.

[narcimund 0]

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Coming to the US only for the purpose of getting a better paying job is hardly a desparate situation.

Excellent slippery sidestep. Clap clap.

If I were talking about the people who weren't coming to the US out of desperation I probably would have made an analogy that reflected that. Don't you think?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[rehmwa 2]

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So tell me again what it is that they're doing wrong MORALLY.

You're saying that there is no such thing as right or wrong - everything is contextual. At least in some point - not that I want to put words to your post - it's an extrapolation, not attempt to purposely misstate you (though that is the most popular tactic on this board).

I disagree, simple things like stealing and killing and lying are morally wrong when taken as individual acts. They are still morally wrong even if in the bigger picture the net effect might be less moral otherwise.

The contextual part is how easy is it for outsiders to sympathize with the acts. But that's not morality, that's empathy. It's important to not confuse the two but to deal with each as separate items.

We see a lot of confusion due to this type of misunderstanding. "Oh, I can see why he stole that - let's buy him a present"

The problem with judging each person's crime contextually (there's benefit if applied well), is that the application can never be fair, it would rife with different prejudices, regional differences, mob mentality. Uniformity requires we have a more rigid definition of right and wrong and not let our emotions/empathy affect the application of justice. Contextuality both enables someone to more easily think they can break the law - they just need a good story/excuse.

The man that steals bread to feed his family is more nobel if he recognizes he'll be punished for thievery but does it anyway for the common good. In a contextual justice system, the man might steal bread because he thinks he can just get away with it - in lieu of exploring other options to feed the family.

It's a good idea to understand how (self?) righteous desparation can drive someone's actions. It's just not a good idea to think that excuses them from breaking moral code amongst civilized people.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[narcimund 0]

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So tell me again what it is that they're doing wrong MORALLY.

You're saying that there is no such thing as right or wrong - everything is contextual.

Well, I certainly wasn't trying to say that, but I see that I didn't put enough thought into how I wrote my post.

Let me rephrase to get to the point I actually wanted to get to:

So tell me again what it is that they're doing DIFFERENT from what you'd excuse in yourself.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[rehmwa 2]

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So tell me again what it is that they're doing DIFFERENT from what you'd excuse in yourself.

I don't see a big difference - illegal immigrants I know are mostly decent types like anyone else (people are pretty much the same deep down). It's not a matter of fairness, it's a matter of legal citizenship. And who gets caught and who doesn't.

I emphathize very much. But I also emphathize with legal immigrants and existing citizenry too. When those conflict, then we need to revert to rules on the books as our contract of civilization.

much of the time, empathy and legality don't align at all. sucks doesn't it?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[yjumpinoz 0]

Well said....

[billvon 3,120]

>Coming to the US only for the purpose of getting a better paying job
>is hardly a desparate situation.

If that better paying job allows you to feed your kids and afford medical care for them - then it's about as desperate. Heck, while I'd rather no one emigrate illegally, if it was a choice between people working illegally or stealing bread, I'd rather have em working.

[masterrig 1]

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So tell me again what it is that they're doing DIFFERENT from what you'd excuse in yourself.

I don't see a big difference - illegal immigrants I know are mostly decent types like anyone else (people are pretty much the same deep down). It's not a matter of fairness, it's a matter of legal citizenship. And who gets caught and who doesn't.

I emphathize very much. But I also emphathize with legal immigrants and existing citizenry too. When those conflict, then we need to revert to rules on the books as our contract of civilization.

much of the time, empathy and legality don't align at all. sucks doesn't it?

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Hear, hear! You're putting it much more mild than I would! I don't know, about where you live. Here, we have many illegals. I've found them to be rude and arrogant. I know 2nd. and 3rd. generations, on the other hand, who are really good people. What I'm really getting tired of is the PC bull-shit! The folks who sneak across the border are not 'immigrants'... they are 'illegal aliens'. The illegals are breaking our laws and thumbing their collective noses at us and those who have or are going through the process of becoming citizens and I don't like it. I think, every illegal in this country should be gathered-up and returned to their native country. No amnesty, no anything. I think too, those who hire illegals should be fined severely. Repeat offenders, should go to prison. It is those who hire the illergals who are causing the problem.


Chuck

[narcimund 0]

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Hear, hear!

You frame it as if you're agreeing with the post you're responding to, but it sure looks like you're talking from a completely different viewpoint.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[rehmwa 2]

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You frame it as if you're agreeing with the post you're responding to, but it sure looks like you're talking from a completely different viewpoint.

it's certainly a different viewpoint, but some of it is common ground - the law needs upholding and other solutions should be in place for the fairness of those living by the rules.

I'd disagree as it has nothing to do with the real or perceived attitudes of the lawbreakers ('thumbing their noses' vs 'getting away with it and hoping they won't get caught') - just upholding the law.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants