kelpdiver 2 #26 June 6, 2006 Quote I'd be willing to bet that if we hadn't messed with them in the first place then they wouldn't be terrorizing us. Kinda like the old "ow, it hurts when I do this". Well, don't do that. The history of the world proves this statement to be false, and naively stupid at that. People do bad things to each other in the pursuit of power/happiness/wealth. They then make up reasons to justify it, if necessary. Sometimes that's done in the name of a god. Sometimes the excuse is more elaborate. San Francisco has lot of people that suggest we should take the Jesus route and turn the other cheek, and they'll stop sticking spikes in our ass. I think your "ow, it hurts when I do that" statement fits better there. The opposition has absolutely no qualms killing civilians, reporters, missionaries that are helping the people. Why anyone would believe that lowered our defenses would do anything but get more killed is beyond me. Ronnie Raygun killed our budget, but his Peace through Strength worked a hell of a lot better than Bush Sr.'s Line in the Sand or Clinton's I'm the Domestic President mantras. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #27 June 6, 2006 QuoteQuote I'd be willing to bet that if we hadn't messed with them in the first place then they wouldn't be terrorizing us. Kinda like the old "ow, it hurts when I do this". Well, don't do that. The history of the world proves this statement to be false, and naively stupid at that. ... No it doesn't. History proves my point. We're doing the same thing in Iraq now that the Brits did 80 years ago. And no one said anything about "lowering DEFENSES". What we're doing over there has nothing to do with our defense. My assertion is that we reap what we sow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #28 June 6, 2006 QuoteThis whole mess is a damned if you and damned if you don't scenario. If you do something about terrorism it will foster more terrorists. If you don't then the terrorists that exist will continue on their mission. Either way terrorists and terrorism is here to stay. I think it is better to take the war too them rather then try to keep a defense only strategy. A good offense is the best defense. The "war" has been defined in such a way as to be unwinnable, for the political gain of the war party. Read "1984".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #29 June 6, 2006 What would you think is the best strategy? I see this as the classic Two crabs in the same bucket story where neither crab will allow the other to escape. Are you of the opinion that this war was created for political gain by US politicians? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #30 June 6, 2006 Quote Are you of the opinion that this war was created for political gain by US politicians? Yep. ...We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership. As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?.... http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #31 June 6, 2006 Show me which country wouldn't have the same goals if they were in the same position as the US. There are much worse countries out there then the US. If the US were to fall from being the top world power it just be replaced by some other country that would be just as hated or more so. I don't think this war was created by any country, like I said it is a religous war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dancergirl 0 #32 June 6, 2006 QuoteNK just may preemtively strike the US, but it will probably be followed by their country being turned into a desolate radio active waste land. Hopefully they are not willing to go that far. As far as I can tell Kim Jung Il is crazy but not that stupid. The cold war idea of MAD is still very possible. North Korea might not attack America, but are you sure terrorists with nothing to lose won't gain a small nuclear bomb from Iran/North Korea/Pakistan and use it on mainland USA ? how are you going to turn "their" country into a waste land when you don't know who did it, or even if you know what country they came from, how are you going to retaliate against a country that was innocent... it was just a strike by loan terrorists, not a strike by a government ??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #33 June 6, 2006 Quoteit was just a strike by loan terrorists, don't get me started on the banking industry.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #34 June 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Such thinking has been the fuel for many of the worst atrocities in history. Such thinking is step 1 in warfare. First you must dehumanize the enemy. We don't want to go over there and kill other people. It's much easier to accept/do if we're just killing Japs, Krauts, Gooks, and Ragheads. Certainly. I can appreciate the that the guy on the front line needs to do that in order to desensitize himself to the things he must do to survive. That said, we need to be carefull to not to allow that kind of thinking to dominate our perspective. Those ideas can only be justified by someone who is serving on the front lines, not anyone here in the comfort and safety of North America. Richards My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #35 June 6, 2006 <> - Pretty much, yes.... there has been terroism for ages (IRA, Basque, Red Brigade , Tamil Tigers ...etc....etc....etc...) but a war on terrorism is a very recent 'invention'..... Tell me it aint so... . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #36 June 6, 2006 >If the US were to fall from being the top world power it just be replaced >by some other country that would be just as hated or more so. I don't buy that the US should not try to do the right thing because other people are worse. We're not just another Saddam Hussein. We're the United States of America. We should do what's right because it's right, not because we're just slightly better than North Korea. >I don't think this war was created by any country, like I said it is a religous war. You really think so? That's a scary thought. The Crusades were not a bright point in the history of Christian nations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #37 June 6, 2006 I don't think this era of Islamic terrorism will shine too brightly on the history of Islamic nations either. I didn't say that the US should not try to do the right thing. I do think that no matter what country is at the top they will be hated and will have to deal with some form of terrorism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #38 June 6, 2006 >I don't think this era of Islamic terrorism will shine too brightly on >the history of Islamic nations either. Uh, dude, when we invaded Iraq they had a SECULAR government. They now have a more theocratic government. >I do think that no matter what country is at the top they will be hated . . . We were not hated after 9/11. The whole world was with us. Since then, because of our actions, a lot of the world does indeed hate us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #39 June 6, 2006 QuoteShow me which country wouldn't have the same goals if they were in the same position as the US. There are much worse countries out there then the US. If the US were to fall from being the top world power it just be replaced by some other country that would be just as hated or more so. I don't think this war was created by any country, like I said it is a religous war. You mean world domination? It doesn't work. Romans did it and failed. Napolean, Hitler? Failed. Was it part of the vision of the Framers? No freakin' way. But as I've said in earlier threads if this is what we're all about then I wish our leadership would admit its imperialist ambitions and let our voters decide if that's the route we should take. As for the religious war idea, a few years ago I would have said you were mistaken. But with the bible thumper we have at the helm right now we might as well be painting big red crosses on our tanks. Damn I can't wait to vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #40 June 6, 2006 Quote As for the religious war idea, a few years ago I would have said you were mistaken. But with the bible thumper we have at the helm right now we might as well be painting big red crosses on our tanks. I wonder if our Imperious Leaders ever sat down to look at the words to this little ditty. Espeically since Imperious Leader seems to believe he has Christ on speed dial. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, With the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; Forward into battle see His banners go! Refrain Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, With the cross of Jesus going on before. At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee; On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory! Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise; Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. Refrain Like a mighty army moves the church of God; Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, One in hope and doctrine, one in charity. Refrain What the saints established that I hold for true. What the saints believèd, that I believe too. Long as earth endureth, men the faith will hold, Kingdoms, nations, empires, in destruction rolled. Refrain Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane, But the church of Jesus constant will remain. Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail; We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail. Refrain Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng, Blend with ours your voices in the triumph song. Glory, laud and honor unto Christ the King, This through countless ages men and angels sing. Refrain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #41 June 7, 2006 No, we're not winning. You can't win a war against a concept. Fighting against a concept is trying to kill thoughts and ideas with bullets. You can't fight "terror" any more than you can fight "drugs". We've put a few kinks in al queda (sp?), but have we made even a small dent in the concept of terrorism as a whole? No. We're still seeing many suicide bombers, kidnapped people, and it's less safe for americans to travel now than it was in 2000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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shropshire 0 #35 June 6, 2006 <> - Pretty much, yes.... there has been terroism for ages (IRA, Basque, Red Brigade , Tamil Tigers ...etc....etc....etc...) but a war on terrorism is a very recent 'invention'..... Tell me it aint so... . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #36 June 6, 2006 >If the US were to fall from being the top world power it just be replaced >by some other country that would be just as hated or more so. I don't buy that the US should not try to do the right thing because other people are worse. We're not just another Saddam Hussein. We're the United States of America. We should do what's right because it's right, not because we're just slightly better than North Korea. >I don't think this war was created by any country, like I said it is a religous war. You really think so? That's a scary thought. The Crusades were not a bright point in the history of Christian nations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #37 June 6, 2006 I don't think this era of Islamic terrorism will shine too brightly on the history of Islamic nations either. I didn't say that the US should not try to do the right thing. I do think that no matter what country is at the top they will be hated and will have to deal with some form of terrorism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #38 June 6, 2006 >I don't think this era of Islamic terrorism will shine too brightly on >the history of Islamic nations either. Uh, dude, when we invaded Iraq they had a SECULAR government. They now have a more theocratic government. >I do think that no matter what country is at the top they will be hated . . . We were not hated after 9/11. The whole world was with us. Since then, because of our actions, a lot of the world does indeed hate us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #39 June 6, 2006 QuoteShow me which country wouldn't have the same goals if they were in the same position as the US. There are much worse countries out there then the US. If the US were to fall from being the top world power it just be replaced by some other country that would be just as hated or more so. I don't think this war was created by any country, like I said it is a religous war. You mean world domination? It doesn't work. Romans did it and failed. Napolean, Hitler? Failed. Was it part of the vision of the Framers? No freakin' way. But as I've said in earlier threads if this is what we're all about then I wish our leadership would admit its imperialist ambitions and let our voters decide if that's the route we should take. As for the religious war idea, a few years ago I would have said you were mistaken. But with the bible thumper we have at the helm right now we might as well be painting big red crosses on our tanks. Damn I can't wait to vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #40 June 6, 2006 Quote As for the religious war idea, a few years ago I would have said you were mistaken. But with the bible thumper we have at the helm right now we might as well be painting big red crosses on our tanks. I wonder if our Imperious Leaders ever sat down to look at the words to this little ditty. Espeically since Imperious Leader seems to believe he has Christ on speed dial. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, With the cross of Jesus going on before. Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe; Forward into battle see His banners go! Refrain Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war, With the cross of Jesus going on before. At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee; On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory! Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise; Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise. Refrain Like a mighty army moves the church of God; Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod. We are not divided, all one body we, One in hope and doctrine, one in charity. Refrain What the saints established that I hold for true. What the saints believèd, that I believe too. Long as earth endureth, men the faith will hold, Kingdoms, nations, empires, in destruction rolled. Refrain Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane, But the church of Jesus constant will remain. Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail; We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail. Refrain Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng, Blend with ours your voices in the triumph song. Glory, laud and honor unto Christ the King, This through countless ages men and angels sing. Refrain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #41 June 7, 2006 No, we're not winning. You can't win a war against a concept. Fighting against a concept is trying to kill thoughts and ideas with bullets. You can't fight "terror" any more than you can fight "drugs". We've put a few kinks in al queda (sp?), but have we made even a small dent in the concept of terrorism as a whole? No. We're still seeing many suicide bombers, kidnapped people, and it's less safe for americans to travel now than it was in 2000. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
