Home grown Islamic terrorism cell twarted in Toronto Canada

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I am extremely happy that we caught this group of low life scum before they could bring their terror upon the population. But one has to wonder how many more cells are out there.

I am happy we caught them as well and have potentially thwarted an attack.

I'll reserve my name calling until the case has gone to court and they have been found guilty.

[billvon 3,119]

>Don't care if they did it by spying on thier e-mails or snail mail or
>telephone conversations.

They did neither. I listened to an interview with a RCMP spokesperson this morning, and they were emphatic that they do not monitor communications on either their citizens or recent immigrants.

>What ever tools they use to catch the bad guys is ok.

They used good old fashioned police work. The same sort of work we used to do, before we became more interested in spying on ourselves.

Keep in mind that the reason 9/11 happened was not a lack of information. Shortly before the attack, the president got a briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" which included intelligence stating he wanted to "follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef", and was targeting New York buildings and had been planning to hijack airliners. The problem was not lack of information - it was a failure to understand it. In the words of the media they "failed to connect the dots."

The solution to this problem is not more dots. It's better police work, and better analysis of the information we DO have. Had we paid more attention we could have stopped 9/11 just as the RCMP stopped this attack.

>I am not one of them, so they will not drag me in with the bad guys.

Famous last words. Google "Jose Padilla."

The rights we protect are only rights as long as EVERYONE has them. Thousands of americans fought and died to protect those rights. We dishonor these heroes by giving up those rights because we are frightened. They had the courage to die for those rights; we should at least have the courage to not abandon them when we are scared.

[kallend 2,150]

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Not replying to Canuk just generally to all who automatically attack the government, weather it's the US or Canada or anywere else.
Glad they caught these guys before they killed someone.

Don't care if they did it by spying on thier e-mails or snail mail or telephone conversations.

What ever tools they use to catch the bad guys is ok.

If they read my e-mails etc. in their search for the bad guys, tough shit. I am not one of them, so they will not drag me in with the bad guys.

Those who think every gov't in the world is heading down the same path as the Nazi's are perhaps a bit paranoid.

If you do not plot against the gov't or the population at large they will leave you alone. If you are in the US or Canada Or New Zealand, Australia etc etc you get the chance to change the government if you don't like what they are doing.

So if you prefer to have yourself, your loved ones or neighbours attacked by the bad guys (and remember some think they are the good guys) vote for on of those parties that would go all the way to the extreme of not letting the government protect the people by these means in favour of protecting your civil rights.

And just for the record who said privacy of e-mail was a civil right. If that were the case all those damn spammers should be going to jail for invading my in box!!!

I guess you're just too young to remember Senator Joseph R. McCarthy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[akarunway 1]

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>Don't care if they did it by spying on thier e-mails or snail mail or
>telephone conversations.

They did neither. I listened to an interview with a RCMP spokesperson this morning, and they were emphatic that they do not monitor communications on either their citizens or recent immigrants.

>What ever tools they use to catch the bad guys is ok.

They used good old fashioned police work. The same sort of work we used to do, before we became more interested in spying on ourselves.

Keep in mind that the reason 9/11 happened was not a lack of information. Shortly before the attack, the president got a briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" which included intelligence stating he wanted to "follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef", and was targeting New York buildings and had been planning to hijack airliners. The problem was not lack of information - it was a failure to understand it. In the words of the media they "failed to connect the dots."

The solution to this problem is not more dots. It's better police work, and better analysis of the information we DO have. Had we paid more attention we could have stopped 9/11 just as the RCMP stopped this attack.

>I am not one of them, so they will not drag me in with the bad guys.

Famous last words. Google "Jose Padilla."

The rights we protect are only rights as long as EVERYONE has them. Thousands of americans fought and died to protect those rights. We dishonor these heroes by giving up those rights because we are frightened. They had the courage to die for those rights; we should at least have the courage to not abandon them when we are scared.

>"While CSIS and police typically won't talk about their operational methods, the available techniques range from monitoring electronic communications, from cell phones and landlines to emails and computers, to physically following persons of interest as they move about and talk to others."

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Our government in Canada has been quite complacent with respect to security so I would not be surprised to see that there are quite a few more out there.

I disagree! Our government has not been complacent with respect to security; they have simply not been as vocal about it as have the governments of US and UK. CSIS has had, I believe, a great deal of success in developing a benign if not bumbling public profile while actually doing their job. The assassination attempt on the Japanese PM in Toronto in the early nineties, the guy busted at the US border who wanted to blow up the space needle (or was it LAX, I forget), this latest bust. These are all the results of CSIS doing it's job. The fact that I have never seen a CSIS spokesperson on the news is a good thing; it does not mean they are not on the job.
Have you noticed the US administration's complaints on this have vanished since the Conservatives came to power. I'm guessing FOX news is continuing unabated.

[Richards 0]

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CSIS has had, I believe, a great deal of success in developing a benign if not bumbling public profile while actually doing their job.

I do not know enough about the inner workings of CSIS to agree/disagree with that, but I can take your word on it.

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the guy busted at the US border who wanted to blow up the space needle (or was it LAX, I forget), this latest bust.

Wrong. Ahmed Reesam was caught at the US border after having been watched by US officials not Canadian authorities. His presence in Canada turned out to be a bit of an embarrasment to us.

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These are all the results of CSIS doing it's job. The fact that I have never seen a CSIS spokesperson on the news is a good thing; it does not mean they are not on the job.
Have you noticed the US administration's complaints on this have vanished since the Conservatives came to power. I'm guessing FOX news is continuing unabated.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Most of the information was gained by monitoring the Internet. That's how they first discovered the cell.

As far as connecting the dots, two words "Able Danger".

I sincerely worry that if a plot was discovered today that with the politically correct atmosphere in the US, that we might not be able to adequately investigate it and follow the dots.

[kallend 2,150]

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Most of the information was gained by monitoring the Internet. That's how they first discovered the cell.

As far as connecting the dots, two words "Able Danger".

I sincerely worry that if a plot was discovered today that with the politically correct atmosphere in the US, that we might not be able to adequately investigate it and follow the dots.

So PC now comes to mean abiding by the Constitution.


If you want to place blame for distrust of government, a good place to start looking is Richard M. Nixon.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,119]

>I sincerely worry that if a plot was discovered today that with the
> politically correct atmosphere in the US, that we might not be able to
> adequately investigate it and follow the dots.

That's almost certainly true. From a recent Times article:

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But it also points to a practical obstacle for using link analysis to discover terror networks: information overload. The National Counterterrorism Center's database of suspected terrorists contains 325,000 names; the Congressional Research Service recently found that the N.S.A. is at risk of being drowned in information. Able Danger analysts produced link charts identifying suspected Qaeda figures, but some charts were 20 feet long and covered in small print. If Atta's name was on one of those network maps, it could just as easily illustrate their ineffectiveness as it could their value, because nobody pursued him at the time.
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WASHINGTON, Jan. 16 - In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month. But virtually all of them, current and former officials say, led to dead ends or innocent Americans.
------------------

We can connect the dots if there are a few data points indicating a possible attack. We can't connect the dots if there are 325,000 of them, and only .01% are 'real.' We are not suffering from too little information; we are suffering from too many dots and not enough connection of them. Only when people start to stand up against useless, invasive programs like the NSA's will we start improving our ability to catch these people.

[rehmwa 2]

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The RCMP and CSIS (Canada's equivalent to the CIA) have arrested 17 home grown Islamic extremist in the Toronto area and have confuscated 3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate (3 times what was used in the Oklahoma City bombings back in 1995).

Canadians, damn bunch of trigger happy cowboys, thinking they can tell the world what to do.... arresting poor nitrogen buying farmers (right there in their city apartments) and their fertilizer spreading detonation devices.

Edit: Just reread the subject line and saw how the cell was "twarted". Sorry Canuck - it's really funny if you read it aloud.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

I believe the process of paring down the dots by eliminating unimportant information will result in a more refined and more managable database in the future. These are just growing pains that will eventually be ironed out.

[billvon 3,119]

>I believe the process of paring down the dots by eliminating
> unimportant information will result in a more refined and more
> managable database in the future. These are just growing pains
> that will eventually be ironed out.

Hopefully. In the meantime, the best bet would seem to be to concentrate on refinement and analysis, rather than just adding dots.