Pro Troops... Anti War.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>supporting them means supporting their successful completion of the mission.

Consider whether you support the government of the United States, and if that equates to supporting Bill Clinton (while he was in office.) You can support one and not the other.

I disagree with your analogy.

When Bill Clinton was President, I supported the US, but if Clinton wanted to do something I was against, I could not support him nor his agenda. When he did something I agreed with, I supported him and his agenda.

I was never able to say I supported him, but not what he wanted to do.

[akarunway 1]

"In case you missed it, OBL is still around." > Yeah right. w/ http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html All that shit and we still can't find the punk. He's dead or captured and the US justs want the war to go on for CORPORATE interests Scare me, scare me, yada , yada, yada

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Guest]

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Few people in their right mind would ever confuse the two.
... ... ...
If you passed by protesters tonight, they were not protesting you. They were protesting the politics that got you into the situation.

Quade -- please do not think for a minute that I hold any true contempt in this forum, I was simply using strong statements to express my view. And by the way, I totally respect you as well. You're one of the few dz.commers I've met. It's all good.

However, such statements do, in fact, confuse the two. The troops are an instrument of the political policy. The mission is defined by such policies. The protestors are, in effect, asking their favorite team to stop playing in the middle of fourth quarter.

If these protestors are against the politics of the situation, then their picketing outside an Army Medical Center is pretty much retarded in my view. They need to work their way south towards Pennsylvania Avenue if they want their message to be seen by those the develop policy.

HEAR, HEAR, HEAR.

Please see the Ft Lewis objector Lieutenant thread.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,116]

>When Bill Clinton was President, I supported the US, but if Clinton
> wanted to do something I was against, I could not support him nor
> his agenda.

So you could support the cause (the US) but not the man (Clinton.) It's also possible to support the man but not the cause.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>When Bill Clinton was President, I supported the US, but if Clinton
> wanted to do something I was against, I could not support him nor
> his agenda.

So you could support the cause (the US) but not the man (Clinton.) It's also possible to support the man but not the cause.

Not even close to what I said.

If Clinton had an agenda I disagreed with and didn't support, what would be the point of supporting him personally?

[billvon 3,116]

>If Clinton had an agenda I disagreed with and didn't support,
>what would be the point of supporting him personally?

There would be no point, and I would not expect you to support him. At that time you would support the presidency of the United States but not the man.

Similarly, people can support the troops but not their mission. Those are two different things.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Jun 2, 2006
COMMENT: Letter from Iraq: They're not supporting the troops
By Anthony Ippoliti


I am fortunate enough to receive The Ridgefield Press every few weeks and enjoy keeping abreast of the local issues currently pressing in our small town. I am a U.S. Marine Infantryman currently serving in Fallujah, Iraq, and my mother usually includes The Press in the many care packages she sends me.
Since we have very limited access to telephones, The Ridgefield Press is the primary means by which I receive local news.
Almost every week, I open The Press and find an article or letter to the editors denouncing the coalition effort in Iraq. Invariably, the individuals behind these anti-war letters and rallies mask their political agendas by asserting that they “support the troops but not the war.” People like Vince Giordano, Paul Sutherland and Anne Stubbs are pictured in the April 13 edition of The Press carrying a yellow-ribboned coffin and signs that say “Bring Them Home Now.” They read off the names of the dead and claim to “show support for our troops” while urging lawmakers to “bring them home.” They believe that the U.S.-led coalition should never have entered Iraq and that the current effort is a never-ending quagmire that has made no progress. They believe that things are progressively getting worse and think that our forces should just pick up and leave.
They do all this under the pretense that they are supporting the troops. However, what they are really doing is using our lives and the issue of our safety and well-being as a means to achieve a political end.

• • •

My primary concern is the assertion that these individuals support the troops in Iraq but not our mission. It boggles my mind that this logic is actually utilized on a large scale.
Supporting the troops but not the war is like saying that you support filmmakers but not making films. One cannot claim to support an individual in a given profession but not support what the said profession entails. This is essentially a slap in the face to those in the service.
[b]How protesting the job we are doing in Iraq while demanding our withdrawal constitutes supporting us is beyond me.
Furthermore, I am particularly interested in how these people support us, specifically. I have never once received a letter from an individual who claims to “support the troops, not the war.” Not a single Marine I know has received anything that could be considered remotely supportive from any of these people or the groups they represent. We have received phone cards, hygiene supplies, food, etc. from members of state and local government, radio stations, schools, private individuals and organizations, but never once from any group claiming to “support the troops, but not the war.”
I ask again: How can these groups claim to support our troops while telling us that what we are participating in is wrong?
How can they support us if they are essentially saying that our blood and sacrifices have all been given in vain?
How can they support us if they say that our comrades and brothers who have been wounded or killed in action have done so for a hopeless and morally questionable cause?

• • •

I reply to the questions I pose with a simple answer: They can’t. As a matter of fact, I assert with a considerable degree of confidence that their efforts make our already difficult job even more difficult. I’ll go so far as to say that their rallies and protests cost more and more servicemen their lives and limbs every day.
I support my assertion with evidence gathered first hand. I see the Iraqi people every day. The protesters do not. I speak with the Iraqi people every day. The protesters do not. I don’t sit behind a desk and do paperwork or resupply efforts in the military. I am an Infantry Marine and I walk the sewage-filled streets of this city every single day.
In Fallujah, the people watch Al Jazeerah. However, they also watch CNN. A lot of them fear that the United States will soon cut and run. The people of Iraq see when our country is divided. When they see rallies to “Bring The Troops Home,” they see that as a sign that we will end our efforts prematurely.
Furthermore, they know that the insurgents will not end their efforts early. That leads them to the conclusion that when we leave, the insurgents will still be there. Therefore, if they help us, their lives and the lives of their loved ones will be in great jeopardy the minute we leave — if we don’t finish the job.
Much that they see on American television leads them to believe that we intend to abandon our efforts before the new Iraqi government is capable of defending itself and its citizens.

• • •

The actions of these aforementioned organizations and the heavy media coverage their rallies often generate serves as fuel for the insurgency. Insurgents believe they can drive us out through the idea of “death by a thousand cuts.” The longer they persist in their efforts, the more the American public becomes disenchanted with the coalition effort.
The insurgency sees this as a result. These criminals will continue to kill Iraqi civilians, Iraqi Police, Iraqi Army and coalition forces so long as they see that their efforts are alienating the American public from its military.
And for those of you that aren’t up to speed with the situation in Iraq, the insurgents attack and kill established public services (such as Iraqi police and Iraqi army) more often than they attack coalition forces. As a matter of fact, an explosive-laden insurgent blew himself up last week outside the Iraqi police station that is attached to our compound.
The insurgents aren’t fighting simply to drive America out of Iraq. They are fighting to destroy any semblance of the Iraqi government so that they can impose their will on its people.
Publicly protesting our efforts in Iraq fuels the insurgency. Doing it under the pretext of “supporting our troops” is disgraceful.

• • •

Let me now emphasize that I respect an American citizen’s right to voice his or her opinion in a public forum. Such a right is granted in the U.S. Constitution.
However, voicing one’s opinion in such an irresponsible way is something I do not support. Additionally, using deployed service members as a mask to serve your purely political purpose is downright shameful. If your desire is to protest the war, then protest the war, but don’t use me or any reference to our troops as a tool to bolster your purpose.
I’ll summarize by saying this: Organizations such as The Ridgefield Coalition to Stop the War do not support our troops. No matter what they say or what is printed on the signs they carry, they effectively do the opposite of support us. They downright hurt us.
Such organizations damage the morale of the men and women in the armed forces and progressively cause them to believe less and less in the mission at hand. The conditions here are difficult as it is. Opening a month-old edition of The Ridgefield Press and reading an article about an anti-war demonstration that uses our troops in an effort to mask its true cause doesn’t help.
Please do not feign support while effectively telling us that we are fighting for an unworthy cause. I think I speak for an overwhelming majority of our troops when I ask organizations like The Ridgefield Coalition to Stop the War to discontinue using Marines, soldiers, airmen and sailors as a means to serve a political end.
You are neither supporting us nor honoring us. You are doing the exact opposite.

[warpedskydiver 0]

the Enemies of our country have taken another page from the plans of none other than Gen. Giap

[kallend 2,148]

What a whiney letter full of nonsense. Nonsense!

I have a son in the Army, I know it is possible to support the troops and simultaneously find the mission their CinC defined for them to be based on lies and deeply offensive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[idrankwhat 0]

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You don't support the troops if you don't support their mission.

These folks don't think that way.
http://www.optruth.org

I've heard Reickhoff talk and I recently ordered his book. He seems to have his head screwed on straighter than most people.

[mnealtx 0]

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What a whiney letter full of nonsense. Nonsense!

I have a son in the Army, I know it is possible to support the troops and simultaneously find the mission their CinC defined for them to be based on lies and deeply offensive.

Ah, I see... so a soldier writing about how the Iraq war is wrong and to get the troops out (the ex SAS troop) is to be lauded, but another soldier saying that the demonstrations against the war hurt the troops' morale and encourage the insurgents is "whining and full of nonsense".

Gotcha - nice to see that honest academic impartiality.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GTAVercetti 0]

Since we are tossing around analogies like they are footballs, here is one:

You love your daughter.
You don't like pornography.
You daughter decides to become a pornstar and is happy doing it.

Do you now love porn just because your daughter enjoys doing it or do you continue to love your daughter while disliking what she does?

And commence tearing the analogy apart. But I just had to get one in. It seemed like the popular thing to do.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[narcimund 0]

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And commence tearing the analogy apart. But I just had to get one in. It seemed like the popular thing to do.

Constructing thoughtful and insightful analogies on dropzone.com is like feeding priceless paintings to a goat.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[GTAVercetti 0]

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And commence tearing the analogy apart. But I just had to get one in. It seemed like the popular thing to do.

Constructing thoughtful and insightful analogies on dropzone.com is like feeding priceless paintings to a goat.

I don't like to see scrawny goats.

And just to mix the metaphor: sometimes the fire needs feeding.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[jakee 1,595]

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And commence tearing the analogy apart. But I just had to get one in. It seemed like the popular thing to do.

Constructing thoughtful and insightful analogies on dropzone.com is like feeding priceless paintings to a goat.

Damn, it took me far too long to get the extra level there


(Although isn't that a simile?)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GTAVercetti 0]

yes, we are all over the linguistic lessons today.

ALLITERATION!

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mnealtx 0]

Yeah, but assonance and consonance are feeling somewhat left out....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GTAVercetti 0]

An alliteration using a consonant can be an example of consonance (linguistic lesson is such a one). The same is true with assonance. So only assonance is lonely at the moment.

However, if you are going to toss around these terms all willy nilly, it is expected that you supply some examples.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mnealtx 0]

using your porn reference above as an inspiration of sorts, I give you...

"Lovely lady lumps"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

What's this about a goat Bar-BQ?

I'm in, I have coconut flavored rum and some barBQ sauce to share.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

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using your porn reference above as an inspiration of sorts, I give you...

"Lovely lady lumps"

ugh, I hate that one. I don't want to think of anything on a girl as "lump." bleh.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mnealtx 0]

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using your porn reference above as an inspiration of sorts, I give you...

"Lovely lady lumps"

ugh, I hate that one. I don't want to think of anything on a girl as "lump." bleh.

Me too...but it was all I could come up with on the spur of the moment...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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You don't support the troops if you don't support their mission.

These folks don't think that way.
http://www.optruth.org

I've heard Reickhoff talk and I recently ordered his book. He seems to have his head screwed on straighter than most people.

Funny, I haven't seen any of these guys around at Walter Reed. In fact, I've seen plenty of 101st Airborne Assoc., 506th INF Assoc., DAV, and so on...

In fact, the VA volunteers are here all the time. Never seen or heard an "IAVA" rep.

I can't find anything on their site that they want to advocate. I see a lot of "voice" not so much "action".

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!