If You're Old, You're Retired.

[Michele 1]

"If you're old, you're retired." Apparently, that's what the SAG (Screen Actors Guild, the actor's main union) thinks.

A bit of background...my father is an actor. He's been in the industry for 60 years, and a member of SAG nearly as long. Recently, he and I have been working on his Living Trust - and some things have come to light which bother me a great deal.

1. Apparently, Dad's retired. He didn't know that...he's been auditioning for new roles, shot a Clorox commercial about 6 weeks ago, does plays (a different union, but still demonstrates he's working) at a repertory theatre of great repute, and so on. But according to SAG, he's retired.

2. He didn't earn enough "new" money to qualify for his SAG medical insurance last year. You must earn a set amount of "new" money (money that is not from residuals, or from other unions) to get insurance. So they changed it on him; Dad is now in MediCare. Which is good because it's still medical insurance, but bad because it is a nightmare for an older person to navigate that system.

2a. Apparently, the longer you've been in the union, the more money you must make to have benefits like insurance. For a new member, it's a low amount. For an older member, it's a much, much larger amount. It's an exponential scale, as far as I can find out.

3. They don't cover things such as hearing aids, rehab from injuries (Dad's broken hip), or some other "age related" things; but will if it's a younger person, like me, if I broke my hip at my age, I'd be covered. And there's less coverage when you've retired.

4. The death benefits (which is how all this started, while gathering info for the Living Trust) are at least halved if you're retired; meaning if Dad dies while retired, his heirs (in this case, his trust directs that to his grandchildren) get half of what he would be entitled to if he died while not retired. This holds true if he has a heart attack and dies while shooting something or while on stage doing a play/reading. In other words, he could be acting when he dies, and still be considered retired.

5. He is considered an employee of the studios; rather than a 1099, he receives a W2. This entitles him to benefits under the Fair Employment Act/Feds, but he can't access them because...yep, he's retired!

5. Many, many more things along those lines (some still to be discovered).

The thing is, my Dad isn't retired. As I said, he auditions for roles and accepts roles when offered. He works in plays and readings all over Los Angeles, and has been cast for roles in San Diego, San Jose, and various other places (including Connecticutt) in the last 10 years.

Roles in Hollywood for older/old people are few and far between...and the competition is fierce (because of all the other benefits other than just a paycheck) involved. And yet, while Dad's ratio of interviews/auditions and accepted/offered roles remains the same as it did 20 years ago, because he didn't earn enough money last year, apparently he's retired. If he suddenly landed a contract which paid adequate amounts, he'd be unretired.

Sounds like a problem? It sure as fuck is. Dad has never retired from working; he doesn't want to retire; and resents the fact that he is considered retired, not to mention the union he's supported and worked under for 6 decades is cutting benefits to him because he's retired, even though he isn't retired.

Dad called and asked why he was classed as retired; and was told simply because he didn't earn enough new money. Dad told them to unretire him immediately, they told him to earn the money and it happens automatically, and Dad hit the roof. Which, while understandable, wasn't the way to get it handled.

I've tried to request a statement of benefits, the handbook/manual for member benefits, and am in the process of signing up on-line under his name/SAG number to research this further.

But does anyone here actually think this is fair? Is this how it works in other industries? Yes, someone can be involuntarily retired from, say the steelworkers union, but they aren't reinstated if they go out moonlighting and earn XXX $$$, are they? And isn't it a discriminatory effect if someone who is 40 can get all those benefits at a lower income (with more roles available, frankly), than an older person who has a much higher dollar figure to achieve? Something seems really really backwards here.

Just wondering if there's something I've missed, or if I should bring this up to his trust attorney (who I adore, who takes great care of my Dad, and who is very, very smart...).

Your opinion?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mnealtx 0]

Definitely don't give up on that one... keep digging at it, because there's a dead fish buried under THAT rose bush!!

I'd certainly bring it up to the trust attorney...maybe there's avenues he can pursue that y'all can't. I'd also speak with someone in his current acting union and see what assistance they could offer.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[akarunway 1]

Union benefits suck. I've been in 4 yrs now, paid over 20K for health insurance (never used a dime) and got a letter last week telling me I'm uninsured as on the end of the month (I haven't worked much in the last few mths.). On top I see I have a LIFETIME limit of 500K.. Hope I don't get a good case of cancer

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[kallend 2,156]

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Union benefits suck. I've been in 4 yrs now, paid over 20K for health insurance (never used a dime) and got a letter last week telling me I'm uninsured as on the end of the month (I haven't worked much in the last few mths.). On top I see I have a LIFETIME limit of 500K.. Hope I don't get a good case of cancer

Just curious, are the union benefits better than what your employer offers? Cheaper than what you could get independently?

To both of you: next time you hear anyone proclaiming how the US healthcare system is the tops, remember that these instances are part of "the system".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

Hi, Mike! I'm not going to give up, and I agree, there's a stinky fish somewhere. Not exactly sure where, but somewhere. I'll be bringing it up to his attorney tomorrow; she's a sweetheart, and if there's anything there, she'll be able to ferret it out.

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I'd also speak with someone in his current acting union and see what assistance they could offer.

That's who's doing it all...SAG. His union has done this *to* him. Might get really interesting.

Runway said

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I've been in 4 yrs now, paid over 20K for health insurance (never used a dime) and got a letter last week telling me I'm uninsured as on the end of the month (I haven't worked much in the last few mths.).

Yeah, sounds like shit.

Geez, do all unions do this kind of thing?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kallend 2,156]

My GF's bother in law is 70+, and a member of actors equity (maybe SAG too, since he's been in several movies and TV commercials in small roles - most recently in United 93). He only works a few weeks a year now, but I don't recall his having any healthcare issues. I'll ask.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

I'd appreciate that, Kallend.

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next time you hear anyone proclaiming how the US healthcare system is the tops, remember that these instances are part of "the system".

It's less the healthcare system and more the union's willingness to participate in the actor's insurance if a set amount of money is not earned, which, apparently, equals retirement. It's this whole involuntary retirement based on earnings thing that gets Dad madder than a wet hen...and concerns me, as well...not simply the healthcare system (overall, Dad has had great help in that regard...except for the hearing aids and broken hip thing. For rehab, Dad just walked a lot, pain or not. And his hip healed just fine, somehow...).

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mnealtx 0]

I'm sorry, Michele, I wasn't clear - I meant the repertory guild that you spole of him being a member of, too.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,156]

Is it age, or activity level that's the problem? I thought age-related discrimination was illegal.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

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I meant the repertory guild that you spole of him being a member of, too.

Ah. That would be Equity, but they are a very powerless organization; sort of just in name, and a retarded little brother of SAG.

However, his repertory theatre group did refer him to this attorney, and she is an amazing woman and dear person...so help has already been given. LOL!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Rookie120 0]

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To both of you: next time you hear anyone proclaiming how the US healthcare system is the tops, remember that these instances are part of "the system".

The same system some people want the government to have. Our health care.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Michele 1]

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Is it age, or activity level that's the problem? I thought age-related discrimination was illegal.

It's apparently age. I mayn't have been clear; the details are really hard to get from SAG, but what it appears to be is that as you age, you have a higher income requirement to meet to be able to get benefits like those I outlined above. Problem is, that is fine in a "normal" workplace...but acting is not a normal workplace. There aren't any raises, it's contract work (although you're given a W2), and it's a well known fact that roles for older folks do not come about nearly as frequently as those for younger folks (there was a lawsuit from a group of older writers against the network, which alleged that discrimination occurred because the established writers were denied jobs based on age and not ability...it's wending it's way through the courts now).

So to be retired, the actor didn't achieve a certain income; what that income is is based solely on age. For example (I'm making this up; I don't have any facts to work from, just yet...), a 39 year old actor would need to make $30,000 per year to retain the benefits Dad's lost (death, SAG as primary medical, and I'm sure quite a few others), whereas someone Dad's age (83) would need to make $100,000.

And it has to be "new" income, not residuals or continued payment structure from market sales of old stuff...it has to be new work dollars earned in the year preceeding the loss of benefits.

Imagine if the word "old" was traded with African American/black, female, physically handicapped, et cetera. Then you can get a real clear picture of the discrimination that seems to be happening.

That's the issue...well, that and being considered retired. Dad is really unhappy about that, because in his industry, if it gets out you're "retired," you won't even get called for jobs, let alone be able to audition for them, land them, and effectively negotiate a contract. Sucks, you know? Just sucks.

I hope that's a bit more clear. The part about the med benefits was included to simply point out that some items which are used by older folks far more often than younger folks are not covered if you're "retired"...the hearing aids and rehad are just examples from Dad, but I can be positive that there are other denial of benefits for (involuntary) retirees.

And yes, age discrimination is illegal. Doesn't mean it doesn't occur, you know?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mnealtx 0]

Sounds like conceivable grounds for a class action discrimination suit, based on what you're written...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Rookie120 0]

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Sounds like conceivable grounds for a class action discrimination suit, based on what you're written...

That or a good ass-whoopin, which ever make you feel better.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[mnealtx 0]

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Sounds like conceivable grounds for a class action discrimination suit, based on what you're written...

That or a good ass-whoopin, which ever make you feel better.

I'm sure that'd relieve a lot of La Michele's stress, yes.... not so sure it'd help with the situation with her Dad, though...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Rookie120 0]

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I'm sure that'd relieve a lot of La Michele's stress, yes.... not so sure it'd help with the situation with her Dad, though...

Yeah I suppose. Maybe thats why I'm not a lawyer. Or maybe that lack of intelligence thing has something to do with it. Sounds like a sad situation to be in. The only thing to do is what was already suggested and get a lawyer.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Michele 1]

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Sounds like a sad situation to be in. The only thing to do is what was already suggested and get a lawyer.

Yeah, I think the lawyer route is the way to go. I'll get some more research done on it, and see what Dad's lawyer thinks about it tomorrow.

I know Dad would love to pound someone, but I won't let him...LOL! Actually, since this is an entire union, I wouldn't quite know who to pound...

Should be interesting. It's just not fair...not at all. If it were a straight across the board earnings issue, fine...but it isn't, at least as far as I can tell. And that is what makes it shitty.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Rookie120 0]

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Should be interesting. It's just not fair...not at all. If it were a straight across the board earnings issue, fine...but it isn't, at least as far as I can tell. And that is what makes it shitty

It sucks. The union which I assume he paid his dues all those years and was supposed to be taken care of now gets dumped like a bad habit. Just plain ole shitty.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[racer42 0]

Yes this is a sad situation. I am a member of the IATSE, which is the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees and Allied Guilds ( includes motion pictures ), in addition we also cover the United Scenic Artists in the US and Canada.
None of these unions are very big especially SAG-AFTRA and Actor's Equity. Maybe 100,000 total members. The IATSE is about the same.
All of us are at the mercy of our employers, which by the way is not the Unions

Our employers are the Alliance of Broadway Producers, predominately about four or five companies, Disney, Clear Channel, the Nederlander, Jujamcyn and Schubert organizations. Along with the large motion picture and television studios, there are also numerous large ad agencies and production companies we all work for.

The union's job is to negotiate and secure employement and employement conditions for it's members.

Negotiating with companies like Disney and Clear Channel is a savage business.

Without steady revenue from members the unions are forced to add or subtract benefits based on the deals they can get with these huge companies. The steady revenue comes from working actors, stage hands, designers etc.

It is simply another example of how the dark side of the free market system works. Employees become disposable at certain periods. When they become too expensive or in the case of your Dad, too "old".

During the golden years of Hollywood and Broadway
everbody worked. Actors, directors, technical personnel, hell, even writers were treated with respect .

Now it's the short term gain like any other industry. Cut costs and make the next quickest buck.

There hasn't been an original movie or play or musical of significance produced in years.

But that is the business of show afterall.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[Michele 1]

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Without steady revenue from members the unions are forced to add or subtract benefits based on the deals they can get with these huge companies. The steady revenue comes from working actors, stage hands, designers etc.

I agree - except, it's not about "steady" revenue, it's about the older you are, the more you must earn to get the same benefits that younger people get. And that's the problem, and where discrimination comes in, imho.

Yes, it's free market. But when free market violates federal law here in the US, there is remedies. And that's what I'm looking to see; what remedies there are, under the law.

Can Dad get the benefits restored? Dunno...but that's for smarter, far more educated minds than mine...and that's where I'm gonna take it. 'Cause at least I know when I'm out of my depth. We'll see what

And I'm not so sure that "who the employer is" is an important aspect of the case. While it most certainly would be in say a normal industry, it is also a requirement to belong to the union to work in Hollywood...and that means you must abide by their rules/regs or you can't work. Which means that you're at their mercy...which gives them the power, and if there is an abuse of that power, and laws are broken, they can be held just as responsible as a "regular" employer. I think. Again, that's one of the questions I have for the lawyer tomorrow. It might get really interesting soon.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mnealtx 0]

La M

Another tack I just thought of... is it legal for them to exclude royalty/provisional payments as valid income, if your Dad is still having to pay taxes on those amounts??

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[racer42 0]

I agree - except, it's not about "steady" revenue, it's about the older you are, the more you must earn to get the same benefits that younger people get. And that's the problem, and where discrimination comes in, imho


Exactly...and this is where the attorney comes in. It is about the agreement under which the producer and the union local are working under. The producer hires the actors through the local, pays the local and the local pays it's members, deducting of course referal fees and benefits. These fees should be paid by the producer or partly paid by the producer.

SAG-AFTRA and Equity require you to be a member in Hollywood and New York and most major touring shows ( called Yellow Card ). As a technical or trades person I do not necessarily have to be in a local in California but do in closed shop states.

But you are doing the right thing. While the entertainment industry is a far cry from "normal business".

I always say business is business. Go and get 'em

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[warpedskydiver 0]

Just wondering if there's something I've missed, or if I should bring this up to his trust attorney (who I adore, who takes great care of my Dad, and who is very, very smart...).

Your opinion?

Ciels-
Michele

[Michele 1]

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The producer hires the actors through the local, pays the local and the local pays it's members, deducting of course referal fees and benefits. These fees should be paid by the producer or partly paid by the producer.

I don't think that's how it works with the actors, exactly. I'm pretty sure that SAG doesn't pay Dad; his W2's come from the studios directly - NBC/ABC/CBS, Disney, Universal, 20th Century, et cetera. And he is responsible for paying dues directly to SAG/AFTRA (and Equity).

By being a member, you receive certain benefits; collective bargaining, certain uniform work standards, particular minimum wage for specific work (under fives, weekly minimum, et cetera), residual schedules and market sales, and so forth. They do track your wages, so I'm not sure if it's simply reported to them, or what, exactly, happens. But the W2s come from the studio you do the work for; however, the benies come from the union.

I remember as a child, there was no issue with taking me to the Dr or hospital; no problems with coverage whatsoever when I was a kid...and Dad was not making much at the time. So there is a graduating scale, if my Dad doesn't have SAG as a primary insurer at the moment.

I think it's more about the agreement between the union member and the union, but I can't find a benefits or member manual on-line. I've got to get Dad's SAG number, create an email for him, and register...'cause maybe it's tucked into the members only section of SAG online...once I can see that stuff, I can get a better handle on where the problem lays - in the union itself (where I think it is), or in the contractors (i.e. the studios).

And yes, it's definitely something I'll bring up to the lawyer today...

And Warped, it does sound a bit like Cosa Nostra, doesn't it...except, Dad has had more success in the last 15 years than he has in the other 45 years he has been a member...

Ciels-
Michele

Edited to add: You might be on to something about some fees being paid by production...that would explain the need for "new" income rather than counting the residual income. Hrm...another avenue to chase. Thanks! (And I mean that sincerely...).

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[warpedskydiver 0]

And Warped, it does sound a bit like Cosa Nostra, doesn't it...except, Dad has had more success in the last 15 years than he has in the other 45 years he has been a member...

Ciels-
Michele