A few bad apples.

[Skyrad 0]

I'm begining to wonder just how many 'a few' really is. One things for sure I wouldn't go buying apples from the Pentagon. Its begining to look like alot of the barrel is buggered.

[URL]http://ksdk.com/news/world/us_world_article.aspx?storyid=97533[/URL]

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[miked10270 0]

I would suggest that the troops are being "Attitude-Mirrors".

If the people visibly don't want them there, and don't care about the troops' welfare, then the troops will adopt the same attitude to the people.

Meanwhile, As far as I can see, the US Marines are behaving well up to the standards of an offensive fighting force. Remember that it's COPS who play "Shoot--don't-shoot". Armies play "Shoot-and-kill-'em-all-with-minimum-friendly-casualties"!

After that "atrocity" in the village where the US Marines killed civilians... I'm just waiting for it to emerge that the roadside IED which started it all was detonated by command wire from that village. Hence the search & clear exercise.

If you train folk, you shouldn't get upset when they follow their training!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[lawrocket 3]

Don't blame enlisted for it. This is a command-climate issue. Issues such as this are not "Attitude-Mirrors" as miked put is, but rather "Attitude Conduits" reflecting the philosophies and policies of the commanders.

If the wuad leader is a little too gung ho, it's up to the LT or CO to relieve the platoon sergeant for letting it happen or relieve the LT for letting the platoon sergeant let it happen.

Those battalion REMFs better be taking a better look at the Captains and LTs. The climate that accepts this is the command climate. If command tolerance for useless death is there, then it will happen.

I was an officer. I figured out that almost everything that works well worked because the enlisted made it happen. I also figured out that fuckups are mainly due to incompetent leadership of the officer corps.

These attitudes typically have their zenith at the Brigade and Battalion level. It snowballs down to infect all trops below unless an individual officer breaks the chain. That officer's job is to chew out the subordinates for not doing things the way he/she wants it done. And if that way is not the way the battalion wants it done, that officer goddamned well better draw fire off of his/her subordinates.

Do NOT blame any enlisted erson below the level of E-9 for this stuff. This is command climate stuff.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Darius11 12]

That’s a lame excuse if i understood your post right

Unless there commander ordered them to kill and rape a woman. When you pull the trigger and you know your going to kill an inocent woman, or when you take of you pants to rape a poor woman you are nothing but scum. I don’t give a shit what the excuse is. Lets not forget we were not invited and have no right to be there.

If really wanted to help the world, there are many countries in Africa that could have done wonders with the money spent on this war; but then again I don’t think any one in an African country tried to hurt Bushes daddy.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

That’s a lame excuse if i understood your post right

Unless there commander ordered them to kill and rape a woman. When you pull the trigger and you know your going to kill an inocent woman, or when you take of you pants to rape a poor woman you are nothing but scum. I don’t give a shit what the excuse is. Lets not forget we were not invited and have no right to be there.

If really wanted to help the world, there are many countries in Africa that could have done wonders with the money spent on this war; but then again I don’t think any one in an African country tried to hurt Bushes daddy.

That happened?...by our troops in Iraq? please post some details

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

That’s a lame excuse if i understood your post right

Unless there commander ordered them to kill and rape a woman.

Wrong. The commander sets the tone and the climate for what behavior is and is not acceptable. The enlisted are not there to think about their purposes, reasons, etc. The enlisted are there to follow orders and to conform with the policies and guidance as reflected by their commanders.

Each troop has independent decision-makig ability and authority. One of the things that makes American armed forces so powerful is the decentralized decisionmaking authority given to troops. We are hard to fight because we don't follow our own doctrine - we improvise, adapt and overcome.

This is the double-edged sword. The decisions must be predicated and based upon values instilled by the commanders all the way up the chain of command. A failure in leadership leads to decisions that are at odds with what we would normally hold to be acceptable. A rogue lieutenant will lead a rogue troop. An ate-up lieutenant will have ate-up troops.

The officers in charge must have a well of fortitude that exceeds those of his troops. When the enlisted are cracking, he must be stable and guide them, and lend some of his fortitude to them.

The hardest thing I ever had to do in the Army was to report one of my favorite troops - which had him arrested - for a grave error he made in his choice to dispose of some waste oil in, shall we say, an ecologically sensitive location as opposed to the proper place. He fucked up big, and probably would have done better going to Mexico.

It didn't stop me from my offer to be a witness for him in the event of a court martial. He should have been punished, but he was a good kid who screwed up, and I thought he deserved a second chance. It never came to that.

Soldiers and Marines get pushed to breaking points. Only leadership and guidance can prevent them from truly breaking. Officers not only should not be breaking, they should be doign their damnedest to take care of the troops. That's their job - take care of the troops.

When the troops are breaking, it means they are not being cared for. And since caring for the troops is the officer's primary responsibility (yeah, 3 out of 4 officers don't seem to believe that), troops breaking is the fault of the officers.

Blame the brass, Darius. They are the ones who get paid to make sure that shit doesn't happen. As a former officer myself, I can attest that it's the way it oughtta be, and I can attest rather ruefully that it sure isn't the way it usually is.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[miked10270 0]

"... Issues such as this are not "Attitude-Mirrors" as miked put is, but rather "Attitude Conduits" reflecting the philosophies and policies of the commanders."

That really depends on how far up the "Fuck-'em" attitude goes. "They laugh & dance in the streets when we're harmed, so..."

The British Army had about 20 years of hard lessons from Northern Ireland to draw on. A solid core of NCOs & senior COmmissioned Officers who'd been there before... And a lot of mistakes to learn from.

What The US Army & Marines have is a few months of training & lectures.

I *KNOW* that one of these lectures will be on Roadside Bombs (based on British experience in NI). Such IEDs are invariably detonated by "command wire. It's low-tech and the most reliable solution. Instant detonation on demand for best effect with no chance of some farm truck or bus accidentally detonating your IED, or it going off at a preset time when nothing's there. No wait for a cellphone to connect and no radio signal to be jammed. Just twist the switch or touch the wires and you've got instant bang!

So... Troops are trained to be aware of the 3 features of a roadside IED:

1. A choke point. Something which'll cause the target to slow or stop.

2. A terrain feature leading from the "choke point" to hide the wire along. Leading to...

3. An overwatch point. Somewhere the operator of the IED can conceal himself, watch the choke point, and detonate the IED at the optimum time.

So... Post detonation, you look for a terrain feature (ditch, hedge, fence, whatever) leading from the place of detonation and follow it to a likely overwatch point (like, in this case, houses). It's amazing how clear this is after a detonation. It's the one with wire running along it!

If you can get to the overwatch point fast enough, there's a fair chance you'll get the Bastard who's just set off the bomb. But in Iraq, you can expect a firefight if you get close to catching the bastard, and like General Patton famously said: "It's not YOUR job to die heroically for your beliefs. It's yur job to make sure the other poor SOB dies for HIS!"

Like I said. Training. They followed it. Their post IED actions went like clockwork. Shame about the civvy collateral damage. But they followed their training. You punish troops for NOT following their training.

Mike.

PS: "... a little too gung ho..." Gung-Ho actually means "in harmony", or "working together"! It doesn't mean "overly aggressive"! It was brought to The US Marines by a colonel who'd worked with The Chinese resisting the Japanese invasion of Manchuria (an army version of The Flying Tigers). It was adopted by the US Marines in it's original meaning, but their fames and heroic aggressiveness during the WWII Pacific campaign perverted it's meaning.

Mike.

Edited to add: Wait a goddamned minute... What the hell am I doing defending The US Marines!!? Bunch'a bodybuilding poofs!

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.