billvon 3,132 #26 May 23, 2006 >The vast amount of data they would have would make it financially >ridiculous to do much else with it. ?? It doesn't cost any more money to have their computers doing something than idling - and the US government has a lot of computing power. One programmer could do almost any sort of correlation he wanted to. >What WOULD they do with the uber-secret information that phone >number 867-5309 called 555-1414? Well, let's see. If a US diplomat said something that harmed the administration, they could reveal that his wife has called a male co-worker 27 times in a month, or perhaps that he's called a phone sex number. Or if a suspected terrorist called a bunch of people, and none of _them_ were suspicious, they could decide that the people he called should be added to the no-fly list. Or they could get desperate, find out one of the people he called was a former prostitute, and arrest him for solicitation as a 'way to get him.' Are there any phone numbers you have ever called that you would not want made public? How about the phone numbers of people who called you? >I don't think the government as a whole is competent enough to >be running some nefarious masterplan to spy on all of us just in case. Read up on ECHELON sometime if you think the government doesn't have such an ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #27 May 23, 2006 Quote?? It doesn't cost any more money to have their computers doing something than idling - and the US government has a lot of computing power. One programmer could do almost any sort of correlation he wanted to. I'd be willing to bet that they'll have to set up a pretty large computing center to stay on top of every phone call that was made every day. Hell, even smaller companies have rooms full of servers to keep their records straight and you're talking about billions of phone calls A DAY. QuoteWell, let's see. If a US diplomat said something that harmed the administration, they could reveal that his wife has called a male co-worker 27 times in a month, or perhaps that he's called a phone sex number. Or if a suspected terrorist... I'd be willing to bet that they'd have to get a warrant to pull 1 individual's call list. If they went public with that, they'd be sued to no end without a warrant. Contrary to popular belief... the Patriot Act still requires warrants, and even then it wouldn't excuse hunting down political enemies... WHICH, by the way, can be done without using a national database at this very moment. QuoteAre there any phone numbers you have ever called that you would not want made public? How about the phone numbers of people who called you? Nope, I'm clean. But if you really want to know... you can find out on your own... without government help. Your phone records aren't secret. QuoteRead up on ECHELON sometime if you think the government doesn't have such an ability. How many people are "got" because of it? Is it even doing its job?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #28 May 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy do you believe that's all they're doing with them? Several reasons: 1. The vast amount of data they would have would make it financially ridiculous to do much else with it. a) The government has a LOT of idle computing power. b) Many things would not take much computing power. For instance, a search of the last 60 days for all instances of string 365-867-5309...let's see who suspect x talked to. OK, persons A thru M talked to suspect x more than 5 times in that time frame...let's search for all instances of string A through M in the last 60 days and see if there are any other correlations. Hey, 70% of them also talked to persons P, R, S, and T. Let's see if persons P thru T were doing anything similar to whatever we suspect person X was doing. See how an unwarranted search of persons not suspected of a crime led to people suddenly being the subject of further investigation? It'd be relatively light on the computer end, and it puts the cart in front of the horse in that searches are supposed to follow warrants which are supposed to follow probable cause. Quote2. What WOULD they do with the uber-secret information that phone number 867-5309 called 555-1414? See above for one example. There are plenty of things they could do with such data that would circumvent a right to being secure in one's person, house, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures. Quote3. What reason do you have to beleive that they're doing something MORE with them? I'm not particularly trusting of the government. It seems to me that if you give them an inch, they'll usually take a couple of miles. Perhaps you trust them more than me. Quote4. I don't think the government as a whole is competent enough to be running some nefarious masterplan to spy on all of us just in case. It doesn't require much competence to run a query for some particular string of numbers in a database. It should require probable cause and a warrant issued by a judge for the government to search for details of a person's life. Such systems were set in place for a reason and should not be circumvented just because technology allows. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #29 May 23, 2006 Nice job on switching the conversation by the way. No one has clarified how stolen SSN's and VA records is similar to a phone call database though. To respond to Livendive... would it be probable cause to tap my phone or look closer at me if I'd been called by a terrorist suspect? You don't think they'd have to get a warrant to hold up a legal case against me? Like I said before... the Patriot Act (from my reading of it) still requires warrants for this stuff.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #30 May 23, 2006 QuoteNice job on switching the conversation by the way. No one has clarified how stolen SSN's and VA records is similar to a phone call database though. I didn't actually mean to hijack the thread. I'm with you on them being fundamentally different situations. Where we seem to differ is that I think both are bad gigs, whereas you only seem to have a problem with the SSN/VA thing. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #31 May 23, 2006 QuoteWhere we seem to differ is that I think both are bad gigs, whereas you only seem to have a problem with the SSN/VA thing. I don't think the SSN/VA thing is bad, other than a retard took the records home against the rules and got them stolen. I mean, the government gives us SSNs and runs the VA so it's only naturaly that the government would have our records there. As far as the data mining, I can see both sides of the argument. I just don't think it's the "big brother" thing that people are making it out to be.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #32 May 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere we seem to differ is that I think both are bad gigs, whereas you only seem to have a problem with the SSN/VA thing. I don't think the SSN/VA thing is bad, other than a retard took the records home against the rules and got them stolen. That's the part I think is bad. I blame that particular guy, and perhaps the security requirements of his organization, but not the government in general. I think we're in violent agreement on this one. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #33 May 23, 2006 >I'd be willing to bet that they'll have to set up a pretty large >computing center to stay on top of every phone call that was made >every day. Yep, it would be pretty large, primarily for storage reasons. >I'd be willing to bet that they'd have to get a warrant to pull 1 >individual's call list. They claim they don't even need a warrant to record a phone call! Why on earth would you think they would get a warrant to get the call list? >Contrary to popular belief... the Patriot Act still requires warrants . . . Not per the secret Executive Order issued shortly after 9/11. >How many people are "got" because of it? Is it even doing its job? I strongly suspect the output of Echelon is one of the most closely held secrets of the intelligence community. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,180 #34 May 23, 2006 Quote 4. I don't think the government as a whole is competent enough to be running some nefarious masterplan to spy on all of us just in case. Aaaah - the saving grace of anything done by this administration.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
