efs4ever 3 #1 May 19, 2006 The Fifth Circuit has just put it's blessing on Texas cops stopping people for violating the Texas Transportation Code section prohibiting obscuring license plates. It seems that the frame, common from dealers on new cars, PARTIALLY obscures the word TEXAS on the plate, thus VIOLATING THE LAW. This is serious, folks. Word of this will spread to all cops if it hasn't already. If you don't want to be "investigated" for things other than a license plate frame.. (You think the real reason for the stop was the frame???) then I suggest removing anything remotely covering your plate. Opinion is listed on my web site in the sig line. ______________Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #2 May 19, 2006 I believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I've yet to hear about anyone getting pulled over for it, so I'm wondering if it's going to be one of those things that rarely gets enforced (like the helmet law, front license plate, etc...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #3 May 19, 2006 QuoteI believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I've yet to hear about anyone getting pulled over for it, so I'm wondering if it's going to be one of those things that rarely gets enforced (like the helmet law, front license plate, etc...) The law has been around a while, but the Fifth Circuit just made it legal. Yes people get stopped for it. People get stopped for not signaling a turn within a hundred feet of an intersection too. Practicing criminal defense and reading police reports sends chills down my spine. It's just another reason to stop a car and then investigate the occupants for some OTHER reason. Say the cop sees you leaving a bar at 2AM. The license plate frame is only probable cause he has to make a traffic stop. What he really wants to do is smell your breath. It legally gets him within smelling distance . I tried and won a possession of pot case where the stop was because the "license plate light was too dim." Jury didn't buy it, even though the defendant produced the pot. Do you really want to take that ride? _________________________Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #4 May 19, 2006 Quote It's just another reason to stop a car and then investigate the occupants for some OTHER reason. I agree completely. I'm suprised that there hasn't been more complaints from minority groups in the state about it too. Quote I tried and won a possession of pot case where the stop was because the "license plate light was too dim." I get more annoyed with this state every day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 May 19, 2006 Did the 5th Cricuit place any reliance on Atwater v. City of Lago Vista? It seems to be a fairly simple stretch after that one! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1888 0 #6 May 19, 2006 I think you will find similar laws in many states. How about a bumper hitch obscuring a plate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #7 May 19, 2006 Look at it this way. This law, gives the police a way of stopping someone for possibly, other 'things'. Like the crack-pipe or baggie full of dope on the front seat in 'plain view'. The broken tail-light thing has been over done. The way I see it, you follow the rules... you've got nothing to worry about. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 May 19, 2006 QuoteI believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I don't think it's dumb for a cop to be able to read what State a license plate is from, so they can trace it. However, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Simple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #9 May 19, 2006 yeah, personally I'm annoyed with all the people who don't have a front license plate (allows to run red lights against cameras) and have an unreadable rear plate through a smoky blurry plastic cover. I presume they're planning to commit small to large crimes. Given the large number, it doesn't appear that California really wants to enforce these laws, though. Nor the recent law requiring common sense on headlights in rain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #10 May 19, 2006 QuoteLook at it this way. This law, gives the police a way of stopping someone for possibly, other 'things'. Like the crack-pipe or baggie full of dope on the front seat in 'plain view'. The broken tail-light thing has been over done. The way I see it, you follow the rules... you've got nothing to worry about. Chuck Then I guess you wouldn't object to cavity searches...... after all, nothing to worry about. Furthermore, the "Chimmel Bubble" allows cops to search a bubble area of the driver, so it's not just plain view. Then there's search subsequent to arrest or to impound. It all starts with some BS like a light or now a frame..... get it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #11 May 19, 2006 Quoteyeah, personally I'm annoyed with all the people who don't have a front license plate (allows to run red lights against cameras) and have an unreadable rear plate through a smoky blurry plastic cover. I presume they're planning to commit small to large crimes. Given the large number, it doesn't appear that California really wants to enforce these laws, though. Nor the recent law requiring common sense on headlights in rain. Quote I presume they're planning to commit small to large crimes. Running lights today, robbing banks tommorrow; stepping-stone offense that license plate frame crime.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 May 19, 2006 Quote Quote I presume they're planning to commit small to large crimes. Running lights today, robbing banks tommorrow; stepping-stone offense that license plate frame crime.... err, no. that's not what I said. No gateway bullshit. I can think of 2 reasons why one would choose to openly ignore the vehicle code on this. 1- they're afraid of camera enforcement, either because they don't trust it (valid) or they don't trust themselves (more likely, not valid) 2- they plan to use the vehicle to commit a more serious crime and want to make it more difficult to identify. As for abusing this to pick on minorities - well, here is a case where they can choose to be smart, or to give the police easy cause to do it. What are the legitimate positives in obscuring your plates? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #13 May 19, 2006 Quote The way I see it, you follow the rules... you've got nothing to worry about. Chuck Stalin said that too. Criminalizing the trivial is one hallmark of a police state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #14 May 19, 2006 >I can think of 2 reasons why one would choose to openly ignore >the vehicle code on this. You can extend that to a lot of things. For example, there are a few reasons why people would openly ignore the laws on maximum speeds: 1. They are fleeing a crime 2. They intend to cause harm to others with their vehicle And a few reasons why people would play loud music in public: 1. They wish to create a public nuisance 2. They are trying to provide 'cover' for a crime >What are the legitimate positives in obscuring your plates? What are the legitimate positives in driving over the speed limit or playing loud music in public? Why shouldn't all those people be arrested, or at least searched? Heck, they're probably committing other crimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #15 May 19, 2006 QuoteQuote The way I see it, you follow the rules... you've got nothing to worry about. Chuck Stalin said that too. Criminalizing the trivial is one hallmark of a police state. So did (and does) the Brady bunch and their ilk, when gun owners say that background checks are in imposition on their rights.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #16 May 19, 2006 The sheeple neve cease to amaze me. When ALL your rights are GONE we'll talk. Stupid motherfuckersI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #17 May 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteI believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I don't think it's dumb for a cop to be able to read what State a license plate is from, so they can trace it. However, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Simple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse! ________________________________ Well said! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #18 May 20, 2006 QuoteQuote Quote I presume they're planning to commit small to large crimes. Running lights today, robbing banks tommorrow; stepping-stone offense that license plate frame crime.... err, no. that's not what I said. No gateway bullshit. I can think of 2 reasons why one would choose to openly ignore the vehicle code on this. 1- they're afraid of camera enforcement, either because they don't trust it (valid) or they don't trust themselves (more likely, not valid) 2- they plan to use the vehicle to commit a more serious crime and want to make it more difficult to identify. As for abusing this to pick on minorities - well, here is a case where they can choose to be smart, or to give the police easy cause to do it. What are the legitimate positives in obscuring your plates? #1 = 99.999% of cases #2 = 00.001% of cases This issue isn't about covering the letters/numbers, it's about covering the word, "Texas" isn't it? Again, it was about a frame obscuring the word, "Texas" rather than the whole plate as I read it. The advantages are either incidental or to avoid a radar ticket - not worthy of PC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 May 20, 2006 Quote>I can think of 2 reasons why one would choose to openly ignore >the vehicle code on this. You can extend that to a lot of things. For example, there are a few reasons why people would openly ignore the laws on maximum speeds: sorry, bill, this was a bit retarded. People exceed the speed limit to 1) get to their destination faster 2) enjoy speed. Intending to cause harm is well down the list, if present at all, because it puts the driver at risk. Fleeing a crime is better suited at a speed in the 65% - the same approach smarter drunks take. Nothing screens .10 DUI like the guy going exactly the speed limit at 1am. So if you got a non strawman answer to why someone would obscure their license plates, I'm all ears. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 May 20, 2006 Quote This issue isn't about covering the letters/numbers, it's about covering the word, "Texas" isn't it? I'm addressing what I see in California. Don't care about Texas. That's the state that litigated against Nolo Press for their legal aid books. And sex toys, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #21 May 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I don't think it's dumb for a cop to be able to read what State a license plate is from, so they can trace it. However, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Simple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse! ________________________________ Well said! Chuck QuoteHowever, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Oh really? All things are fixed in court, huh? It takes decades sometimes to fix things and many things go unfixed. Appellate courts are wayyyyyy over spoken. Then the right complkans about liberal appellate courts, the one that fix these issues. QuoteSimple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse This isn;t a case of license plate frame rights, it's a case of wrongful, unreasonable search. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #22 May 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that this law took effect last year, and I have to say that it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I don't think it's dumb for a cop to be able to read what State a license plate is from, so they can trace it. However, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Simple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse! ________________________________ Well said! Chuck QuoteHowever, if it's used as an excuse to abuse people for other reasons, then that will need to be slapped down in court. Oh really? All things are fixed in court, huh? It takes decades sometimes to fix things and many things go unfixed. Appellate courts are wayyyyyy over spoken. Then the right complkans about liberal appellate courts, the one that fix these issues. QuoteSimple solution: Remove the license plate frame, and remove the cop's excuse This isn;t a case of license plate frame rights, it's a case of wrongful, unreasonable search. _________________________________________ What's wrong with it? The officer would be well within his rights to make the stop according to the law if, he cannot 'plainly read the license plate. Some frames I've seen partially hide letters and numbers. Also, who said anything about "all things are fixed in court"? Also, with everyone bitchin' and squawkin' about 'petty' stops, I don't think too many cops are going to flagrantly misuse the law. Is a license plate frame that damned important as to get a ticket for it? I don't know where you are from but, that's the way it is here in Texas! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #23 May 20, 2006 QuoteWhat's wrong with it? The officer would be well within his rights to make the stop according to the law if, he cannot 'plainly read the license plate. You'd fit in well in the UK. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #24 May 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat's wrong with it? The officer would be well within his rights to make the stop according to the law if, he cannot 'plainly read the license plate. You'd fit in well in the UK. ____________________________________ Ya' think? I can see getting all worked-up about something important but... a license plate frame? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #25 May 20, 2006 You've made my point. >People exceed the speed limit to >1) get to their destination faster >2) enjoy speed. Just as people put license plates frames on because 1) they came with the car 2) they want to make a statement about something 3) they think they look cool. Now, YOU may not think that frames look cool, but I'm sure there's a MADD mother out there who thinks speeding isn't fun either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
