Americans Think Their Calls are Being Recorded

[Gravitymaster 0]

Poll: 26% suspect they've been wiretapped

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- One in four Americans think it is likely that the government has listened to their phone calls, according to a CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation.

The poll results appeared on the day that Gen. Michael Hayden faced intense questions from senators over domestic spying.

Hayden was head of the National Security Agency when President Bush authorized electronic eavesdropping without a warrant inside the United States. He is facing a confirmation hearing to become head of the CIA.

Hayden defended the program on Thursday, saying if it had existed before 9/11, authorities would have almost certainly known of the whereabouts of two of the hijackers and their plans. (Full story)

The CNN poll found 26 percent of respondents thought it was likely their own communications had been tapped, while 63 percent thought it probable that the government had eavesdropped without a court order on citizens not suspected of terrorist links.

Exactly half of those surveyed said the Bush administration was wrong to spy on those calls without a court order, with 44 percent saying the White House was right.

Telephone interviews with 1,022 adult Americans were conducted by Opinion Research Corporation Tuesday and Wednesday. The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Bush said last December after the wiretap program became public that the eavesdropping targeted those with connections to al Qaeda or other terrorist groups and had to be done without seeking court approval to be faster.

Earlier this month, he again said that the government was "not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."

On Wednesday, the full intelligence committees of the House and the Senate were briefed for the first time on the monitoring of phone calls, e-mails and other communications of those suspected of having terrorist links.

Previously, only a handful of senior senators and congressmen were told about the domestic spying operation.

Controversy continues, with a report in USA Today that records of tens of millions of calls were given to the NSA by three major phone companies after 9/11.

The government has refused to confirm or deny the existence of any such program.
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This confirms the view I have expressed on here for the last few weeks that weak minded people are being dramatically influenced by newspaper articles and Tv Reports. Bogus stories like those which appeared in USA Today and CNN about data mining are what is causing this level of paranoia.

Notice how this article even incorrectly states that tens of millions of "calls" were given to the NSA, leading the reader to think their conversations have been recorded. Also notice there's no mention of the fact that Bellsouth and Verizon have disputed this claim.

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[Zipp0 1]

I agree. People are friggin stupid.

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kallend 2,148]

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Poll: 26% suspect they've been wiretapped

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- One in four Americans think it is likely that the government has listened to their phone calls, according to a CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation.

The poll results appeared on the day that Gen. Michael Hayden faced intense questions from senators over domestic spying.

Hayden was head of the National Security Agency when President Bush authorized electronic eavesdropping without a warrant inside the United States. He is facing a confirmation hearing to become head of the CIA.

Hayden defended the program on Thursday, saying if it had existed before 9/11, authorities would have almost certainly known of the whereabouts of two of the hijackers and their plans. (Full story)

The CNN poll found 26 percent of respondents thought it was likely their own communications had been tapped, while 63 percent thought it probable that the government had eavesdropped without a court order on citizens not suspected of terrorist links.

Exactly half of those surveyed said the Bush administration was wrong to spy on those calls without a court order, with 44 percent saying the White House was right.

Telephone interviews with 1,022 adult Americans were conducted by Opinion Research Corporation Tuesday and Wednesday. The results have a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Bush said last December after the wiretap program became public that the eavesdropping targeted those with connections to al Qaeda or other terrorist groups and had to be done without seeking court approval to be faster.

Earlier this month, he again said that the government was "not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."

On Wednesday, the full intelligence committees of the House and the Senate were briefed for the first time on the monitoring of phone calls, e-mails and other communications of those suspected of having terrorist links.

Previously, only a handful of senior senators and congressmen were told about the domestic spying operation.

Controversy continues, with a report in USA Today that records of tens of millions of calls were given to the NSA by three major phone companies after 9/11.

The government has refused to confirm or deny the existence of any such program.
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This confirms the view I have expressed on here for the last few weeks that weak minded people are being dramatically influenced by newspaper articles and Tv Reports. Bogus stories like those which appeared in USA Today and CNN about data mining are what is causing this level of paranoia.

Notice how this article even incorrectly states that tens of millions of "calls" were given to the NSA, leading the reader to think their conversations have been recorded. Also notice there's no mention of the fact that Bellsouth and Verizon have disputed this claim.

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You have no idea what has NOT yet been revealed. 18 months ago you would have said that anyone believing the government was data mining their call data and/or wiretapping any call without a warrant was a crazy. We only found out about these things on account of leaks, and some of you Bushites would like the leakers tried for treason.

One thing is very clear about the Bush White House - it cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I agree. People are friggin stupid.

Zipp0

Agreed, and they all voted for GW.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[unformed 0]

This is precisely why the media should not be allowed to print anything they want. They print something about the government recording terrorists' calls, add in some of the media sensationalism saying now everybody has to be worried, and it sets the entire public into mass hysteria. All it takes is one nutcase who thinks he is Tyler Durden to pick a government building and blow it up. Only after thousands of innocent lives are lost will it come out that the government was only monitoring terrorists' calls, and people who have nothing to hide don't have to worry.

Freedom of speech is good and all, but there's a limit. Just like it is reckless and a crime to scream 'Fire' in a crowded movie theater, it should be a crime to print some of the stuff newspapers get away with these days.

This ad space for sale.

[Zipp0 1]

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This is precisely why the media should not be allowed to print anything they want.

Yes. All that 'freedowm of the press' stuff is a bunch of bullshit!

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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You have no idea what has NOT yet been revealed. 18 months ago you would have said that anyone believing the government was data mining their call data and/or wiretapping any call without a warrant was a crazy. We only found out about these things on account of leaks, and some of you Bushites would like the leakers tried for treason.

One thing is very clear about the Bush White House - it cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
...

All you know about what is going on is by reading the same bogus stories in the newspapers I've cited. The paranoia on the left is is largly due to these bullshit stories. And yes, if someone is leaking these stories to the newspapers, I want them tried for treason. When are people going to get it that we are at war. Do we need another 9/11 before people wake up?

Al Qaeda has made it very clear that they intend on attacking us again and you have no idea how many attacks have been prevented because of security methods in place. Look at the results for a change.

Once again, explain how you have been impacted other than problems launching your model rockets.

Oh, I assumed longer ago than 18 months that the Govt. was doing wiretapping of calls coming into and going out of the US and I'm glad they are doing something. What recommendations do the Lefties have?........Absolutely none, nada, zilch...just more political posturing and using our attempts to prevent another terrorist attack to win back power.

Let me know when they show up at the Whitehouse with a warrant for Bush's arrest for all this activity you think is illegal, OK

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[Gravitymaster 0]

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I agree. People are friggin stupid.

Zipp0

Agreed, and they all voted for GW.

Thanks for proving my point.

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[ChasingBlueSky 0]

God forbid anyone bashes on GW in front of you.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[unformed 0]

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This is precisely why the media should not be allowed to print anything they want.

Yes. All that 'freedowm of the press' stuff is a bunch of bullshit!

Zipp0

Freedom of the press is important, but not freedom to lie and send the public into mass hysteria. Should the New York Times be allowed to print that China has declared war on the US?

No. Looking at past history, that is exactly how Hitler garnered support to invade Poland. He sent out a new bulletin saying Poland had attacked Germany when it wasn't the case.

In the event, it was the government propagating the lies. Now, however it is the media, in an attempt to defame our government. We are in a time of war, and certain measures need to be taken to protect our nation.

Have we had an attack since 9/11?

No, and that is perfect evidence that this is working.

If the public would just shut the hell up and let the government do its job, to govern, we'd be much better off.

Yes, sometimes the government goes a bit overboard, but order is better than anarchy. There was a wise man, although I can't quite remember his name, who once said, "The best government is one who governs the most, as the people are unable to discipline themselves."

This ad space for sale.

[billvon 3,116]

So let's see.

First Bush signed an executive order (still secret) that allows warrantless wiretaps of any suspected terrorists. Shortly after that he said "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed."

Then they said they would only monitor US-overseas calls. They lied didn't quite tell the truth about that.

Recently they announced they are keeping tabs on calls _within_ the US too.
Lawsuits that challenge the legality of these have been quashed by presidential fiat.

And you trust these guys? Were you one of the people who thought the Plumbers of CREEP were really there to protect national security?

I think there is a very good chance that they are doing warrantless wiretaps of US phones as described under the EO Bush issued shortly after 9/11. And I have little doubt that if such an activity is exposed, Bush supporters will immediately change their minds and decide that it's a good idea. The rhetoric will go something like "oh, so you WANT another 9/11 because we couldn't tap their phones?"

>Also notice there's no mention of the fact that Bellsouth and
>Verizon have disputed this claim.

They face billion dollar lawsuits if they admit this. Can you think of a reason they might not want to admit to this? Did you believe the Enron executives when they said they did nothing wrong?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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God forbid anyone bashes on GW in front of you.

Hey, all we get from the left anymore is thinly veiled PA's, comparisons to Hitler, how stupid people who voted for Bush are etc. No arguments, no suggestions on how US Security could be improved. Just bash, bash, bash. So I posted a story by the beloved CNN and tried to point out why I disagreed with it and what I thought of the story and all I get is more of the same. No wonder this forum has been so quiet lately.

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[billvon 3,116]

>Hey, all we get from the left anymore is thinly veiled PA's, comparisons to
>Hitler, how stupid people who voted for Bush are etc.

And from the right we get phrases like "the loony libs" "why do they hate america" "media whore!" etc. (To their credit, several of them are now admitting they made a mistake voting for Bush.)

>No arguments, no suggestions on how US Security could be improved.

There have been hundreds of such suggestions. The right wing treats them thusly:

1) Quashes them in Congress; easy for the majority party to do.
2) Ridicules them.
3) Says they never made them.

No one's buying it any more. The net makes it too easy to see through the party line.

[Zipp0 1]

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Have we had an attack since 9/11?

No, and that is perfect evidence that this is working.

No, it surely is not. This is what is called an "Argument from Ignorance" or argumentum ad ignorantiam, a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.

The fact that there has not been a successful attack in the USA does not prove that their policies or methods are effective. Only documented examples of their policies thwarting an attack can provide such proof.

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Recently they announced they are keeping tabs on calls _within_ the US too.
Lawsuits that challenge the legality of these have been quashed by presidential fiat.

I'm done with his bogus argument of yours Bill. I've provided you with more than adequate rebuttal including a SCOTUS ruling on it. All you've done is try to change the subject.

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And you trust these guys? Were you one of the people who thought the Plumbers of CREEP were really there to protect national security?

Apples and Oranges. Is this really the best you can do? The plummers were not protecting Nat'l Security.

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I think there is a very good chance that they are doing warrantless wiretaps of US phones as described under the EO Bush issued shortly after 9/11. And I have little doubt that if such an activity is exposed, Bush supporters will immediately change their minds and decide that it's a good idea. The rhetoric will go something like "oh, so you WANT another 9/11 because we couldn't tap their phones?"

It's a no win situation for Bush. If he doesn't do it and there's another terrorist attack, you will accuse him of not doing enough. Suddenly the reality of 100,000 people lying dead will turn peoples anger towards him. You have no right if you are dead.

>Also notice there's no mention of the fact that Bellsouth and
>Verizon have disputed this claim.

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They face billion dollar lawsuits if they admit this. Can you think of a reason they might not want to admit to this? Did you believe the Enron executives when they said they did nothing wrong?

Easy argument to make especially when you have no facts to back up your assertion. Explain why that fact was left out of the story when they made sure to include the standard CNN-Bush Bash.

Let me know when the U.S. Marshalls show up at the White House, will you?
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[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Hey, all we get from the left anymore is thinly veiled PA's, comparisons to
>Hitler, how stupid people who voted for Bush are etc.

And from the right we get phrases like "the loony libs" "why do they hate america" "media whore!" etc. (To their credit, several of them are now admitting they made a mistake voting for Bush.)

>No arguments, no suggestions on how US Security could be improved.

There have been hundreds of such suggestions. The right wing treats them thusly:

1) Quashes them in Congress; easy for the majority party to do.
2) Ridicules them.
3) Says they never made them.

No one's buying it any more. The net makes it too easy to see through the party line.

Perhaps you can give me an example other than "lets cut and run in Iraq".

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[Misternatural 0]

I submit that the said paranoia is not the result of recent news stories but the influence of modern literature, movies,certain historical events such as Watergate, TV sitcoms such as 24 and Alias etc. The interesting thing to me is that so many of us think that our phone conversations about inane crap (even about sublime, unsavory,or illegal subject matter) are that fucking interesting. Nonetheless, some paranoia is a good thing in a society, it squelches any covert authoritarian bullshit before it becomes policy.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I submit that the said paranoia is not the result of recent news stories but the influence of modern literature, movies,certain historical events such as Watergate, TV sitcoms such as 24 and Alias etc. The interesting thing to me is that so many of us think that our phone conversations about inane crap (even about sublime, unsavory,or illegal subject matter) are that fucking interesting. Nonetheless, some paranoia is a good thing in a society, it squelches any covert authoritarian bullshit before it becomes policy.

I think it says a lot when a left leaning news source like CNN does a poll and basically confirms what I've said for quite sometime. Hopefully it will make some stop and think about their own perceptions. But I doubt it.

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[skydyvr 0]

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One thing is very clear about the Bush White House - it cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

Ah, first reply from a 26%er.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,116]

>I'm done with his bogus argument of yours Bill. I've provided you
>with more than adequate rebuttal including a SCOTUS ruling on it. All
>you've done is try to change the subject.

It's exactly the same subject; it's just one you want to avoid.

>Apples and Oranges. Is this really the best you can do? The
>plummers were not protecting Nat'l Security.

WHAT? They were plugging damaging leaks from the government to the press! They were protecting the US! (which they claimed early and often.) And all good Nixon supporters believed them 100%. Heck, for all I know, some still do. After all, Nixon's approval rating was 24% the day before he resigned; someone still believed him.

Do you believe them? If not, why are you such a Nixon-bashing america-hater?

>It's a no win situation for Bush. If he doesn't do it and there's another
>terrorist attack, you will accuse him of not doing enough. Suddenly
>the reality of 100,000 people lying dead will turn peoples anger
>towards him. You have no right if you are dead.

That's basically right; it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition. But if you're going to be ineffective in any case, why not follow the US constitution while you're doing it? We really shouldn't ignore it. After all, people are dying to protect it.

>Easy argument to make especially when you have no facts to back up
>your assertion.

So let's see - CEO's who have a billion dollar incentive to lie are certainly truthful. Journalists who have no reason to lie (indeed, have strong incentives not to) are all a bunch of Bush-bashing, America-hating liars. Hey, if it works for you . . .

>Let me know when the U.S. Marshalls show up at the White House, will you?

I have zero doubt that such an action would be stopped "in the interests of national security."

[Gravitymaster 0]

>Apples and Oranges. Is this really the best you can do? The
>plummers were not protecting Nat'l Security.

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WHAT? They were plugging damaging leaks from the government to the press! They were protecting the US! (which they claimed early and often.) And all good Nixon supporters believed them 100%. Heck, for all I know, some still do. After all, Nixon's approval rating was 24% the day before he resigned; someone still believed him.

They were protecting their own asses not Nat'l Security.


>It's a no win situation for Bush. If he doesn't do it and there's another
>terrorist attack, you will accuse him of not doing enough. Suddenly
>the reality of 100,000 people lying dead will turn peoples anger
>towards him. You have no right if you are dead.

Quote

That's basically right; it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition. But if you're going to be ineffective in any case, why not follow the US constitution while you're doing it? We really shouldn't ignore it. After all, people are dying to protect it.

I keep forgetting you have this secret back channel to the "truth". After todays hearings with Hayden, I don't recall anyone coming out with this allegation. In fact there's an excellent chance he will be confirmed without much controversy. I doubt that would happen if your "sources" were right.

Or perhaps you get your info from CNN?

>Easy argument to make especially when you have no facts to back up
>your assertion.

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So let's see - CEO's who have a billion dollar incentive to lie are certainly truthful. Journalists who have no reason to lie (indeed, have strong incentives not to) are all a bunch of Bush-bashing, America-hating liars. Hey, if it works for you . . .

As I said, you have no facts. Thanks for at least acknowledging that.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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It's exactly the same subject; it's just one you want to avoid.

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. I made at least 20 posts on this topic in the NSA thread. I provided plenty of rebuttals and back up including SCOTUS decisions and US Code. You and another poster tried to turn the subject back to the wiretapping story that came out last December instead of the story on the NSA getting call records from Verizon, USA Today and At&T. I pointed out the differences to you and suggested if you wanted to discuss wiretapping, you start another thread. Now you bring it up again in this thread and try to blur 2 different topics.

Oh, but I know it's easier to drum on with a Bush is Evil mantra based on what you read and hear from CNN and USA Today.

[Amazon 7]

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Oh, but I know it's easier to drum on with a Bush is Evil always right mantra based on what you read and hear from CNN and USA Today Fox News and Newsmax.

There fixed it for you

[kallend 2,148]

Bush lied about warrantless wiretaps. Bush lied about torture. Yet you still trust Bush.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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God forbid anyone bashes on GW in front of you.

Hey, all we get from the left anymore is thinly veiled PA's, comparisons to Hitler, how stupid people who voted for Bush are etc. No arguments, no suggestions on how US Security could be improved. Just bash, bash, bash. So I posted a story by the beloved CNN and tried to point out why I disagreed with it and what I thought of the story and all I get is more of the same. No wonder this forum has been so quiet lately.

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You claimed that people believing what is in the media are sheep. While I don't take everything in the media as gospel, I don't distrust every word that is said.

People are free to mistrust GW as his track record isn't that great. His previous actions have led people down the road to believe what you posted.

As far as bashing GW? I've been doing that since I followed his actions in Texas and I was adamant against him in 99 as well. The rest of the country is just catching up to where I've been for the last ten years.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....