Another religion thread.

[Michele 1]

"If you believe, you're under mind control."

"If you don't believe (in my god), you will burn in hell."

Same difference. Completely.

What never fails to amaze me are those people who, in the course of their day, find themselves putting people down for a personal belief. Saying nasty things about their ability to think, to see, to have a different opinion than the watcher. "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see"...the mantra for those who're obsessed with other people's opinions, irrespective of which position they take. I've got plenty of my own -some wrong, some right - so I don't need to worry about anyone else's opinion.

Me? I tend to think pretty independently. I also believe in God. Am I a paragon of virtue? Nope. Am I under some sort of mind control? Nope again. Do I think all folks who don't believe as I do will go to hell? Dunno...but in any event, it's not my place to pass that sort of judgment on someone else.

This whole intolerance thing just gets me. Calling names, saying people are stupid for holding a belief, that they are non-thinkers, is just sad. Same with those who believe and make strong statements about others' opinions simply because they're different. (Frankly, I've seen less "you'll burn in hell" than I have "you are mindless/under mind control/can't think for yourself...maybe that says something...)

Yes, it's intolerance. It may be a bit different from intolerance of gays, interracial marriages, and so forth, but it's still intolerance. And that's a shame.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[akarunway 1]

Agnostic. Only way to go

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[br0k3n 0]

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This whole intolerance thing just gets me. Calling names, saying people are stupid for holding a belief, that they are non-thinkers, is just sad

The fact that 39 people committed mass suicide so that their souls could take a ride on a spaceship that they believed was hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet, is sad. But your right Michele lets not label these peoples belief as stupid,
If a loved one of yours was a member of the Heavens gate cult, would you have been tolerant, would you have said well its their belief who am I to suggest that they don’t kill themselves…

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Yes, it's intolerance. It may be a bit different from intolerance of gays, interracial marriages, and so forth, but it's still intolerance. And that's a shame.

You really cannot compare intolerance to religion in the same light as intolerance to homosexuality, or racism.
What about intolerance to crack cocaine, or heroin is that a shame????

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Michele 1]

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The fact that 39 people committed mass suicide so that their souls could take a ride on a spaceship that they believed was hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet, is sad. But your right Michele lets not label these peoples belief as stupid,
If a loved one of yours was a member of the Heavens gate cult, would you have been tolerant, would you have said well its their belief who am I to suggest that they don’t kill themselves…

Wasn't that an awful event? Very very sad. Worse, though, was Jim Jones, in Guyana. Mental illness is indeed a horrific malady, and one that is, when it's outcome is this, very sad indeed.

If people make decisions with a sound mind, I can't question that, nor should I make judgment. Neither your example nor mine has anything to do with mainstream, everyday religion, spirituality, and life decisions.

In that, then, is the difference. Mainstream religion and the outlier groups such as Heaven's Gate, Jim Jones, Om Shinrikyo, and so on. I've been to many churches and synagogues; I don't recall even one suggesting that I suicide. Sorry; I'll take my experience over your position this time; your specific argument holds no sway with me. You're welcome to try again, however.

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You really cannot compare intolerance to religion in the same light as intolerance to homosexuality, or racism.

Sure I can. If you're not willing to acknowledge that racism and bigotry cost many blacks their lives via lynchings, brutal beatings, and fire bombs as recently as the 50's and 60's in the country, then you are ignoring the impact of racism and intolerance.

If you are ignoring the many, many crimes against gay people simply because they are gay - i.e. Matthew Shepard - then you are, again, ignoring the issue of intolerance and "hate crimes."

I can't help it if you can't see the big picture, but I'll keep trying to get people to see that tolerance is a key to a healthy society; and that screaming that religious people are mind-controlled because they believe in God is very intolerant.

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What about intolerance to crack cocaine, or heroin is that a shame????

It absolutely is a shame. Addiction to heavy drugs such as that is indeed a shame. It has little to do with discussing spirituality, religion and tolerance, however, unless your point is that there are organizations which are "faith based" who step out and help those addicted to those nefarious drugs.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[br0k3n 0]

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Wasn't that an awful event? Very very sad. Worse, though, was Jim Jones, in Guyana. Mental illness is indeed a horrific malady, and one that is, when it's outcome is this, very sad indeed.

If people make decisions with a sound mind, I can't question that, nor should I make judgment. Neither your example nor mine has anything to do with mainstream, everyday religion, spirituality, and life decisions.

It has everything to do with the “mainstream” religions, all religions survive through faith the belief in something without proof, and teach that this is ok.
The members of the HG cult are just one end of the scale, the same end as the suicide bomber, whilst you are probably at the other end. But you are all on the same scale.

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In that, then, is the difference. Mainstream religion and the outlier groups such as Heaven's Gate, Jim Jones, Om Shinrikyo, and so on. I've been to many churches and synagogues; I don't recall even one suggesting that I suicide. Sorry; I'll take my experience over your position this time; your specific argument holds no sway with me. You're welcome to try again, however.

Your missing the point, I’m not saying that religion suggest suicide, but that religion fuels false belief, it teaches its followers that faith in its particular teachings is ok and not to ask questions outside of this. Whether that is the bible, or that there is a spaceship waiting to collect your soul, and it is this fundamental close minded approach that leads to problems.

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Sure I can. If you're not willing to acknowledge that racism and bigotry cost many blacks their lives via lynchings, brutal beatings, and fire bombs as recently as the 50's and 60's in the country, then you are ignoring the impact of racism and intolerance
If you are ignoring the many, many crimes against gay people simply because they are gay - i.e. Matthew Shepard - then you are, again, ignoring the issue of intolerance and "hate crimes."

There are 159 million Americans who identify themselves as Christian, and therefore you have 159 million people whose sacred book tells them that homosexuality is a sin. Christians are taught to oppose gay rights, and defeated several attempts by the Government to accomplish equal gay age of consent.

Sure there is a problem, but where do most of these problems stem from?

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I can't help it if you can't see the big picture, but I'll keep trying to get people to see that tolerance is a key to a healthy society; and that screaming that religious people are mind-controlled because they believe in God is very intolerant.

I agree tolerance is a big key to the success of society; however we have to be careful of what we are tolerant of.

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It absolutely is a shame. Addiction to heavy drugs such as that is indeed a shame. It has little to do with discussing spirituality, religion and tolerance, however, unless your point is that there are organizations which are "faith based" who step out and help those addicted to those nefarious drugs.

The point I was trying to make is that you seem to think you can simply say lets all be tolerant, however see previous comment.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[hairyjuan 0]

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Wasn't that an awful event? Very very sad. Worse, though, was Jim Jones, in Guyana. Mental illness is indeed a horrific malady, and one that is, when it's outcome is this, very sad indeed.

If people make decisions with a sound mind, I can't question that, nor should I make judgment. Neither your example nor mine has anything to do with mainstream, everyday religion, spirituality, and life decisions.

It has everything to do with the “mainstream” religions, all religions survive through faith the belief in something without proof, and teach that this is ok.
The members of the HG cult are just one end of the scale, the same end as the suicide bomber, whilst you are probably at the other end. But you are all on the same scale.

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In that, then, is the difference. Mainstream religion and the outlier groups such as Heaven's Gate, Jim Jones, Om Shinrikyo, and so on. I've been to many churches and synagogues; I don't recall even one suggesting that I suicide. Sorry; I'll take my experience over your position this time; your specific argument holds no sway with me. You're welcome to try again, however.

Your missing the point, I’m not saying that religion suggest suicide, but that religion fuels false belief, it teaches its followers that faith in its particular teachings is ok and not to ask questions outside of this. Whether that is the bible, or that there is a spaceship waiting to collect your soul, and it is this fundamental close minded approach that leads to problems.

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Sure I can. If you're not willing to acknowledge that racism and bigotry cost many blacks their lives via lynchings, brutal beatings, and fire bombs as recently as the 50's and 60's in the country, then you are ignoring the impact of racism and intolerance
If you are ignoring the many, many crimes against gay people simply because they are gay - i.e. Matthew Shepard - then you are, again, ignoring the issue of intolerance and "hate crimes."

There are 159 million Americans who identify themselves as Christian, and therefore you have 159 million people whose sacred book tells them that homosexuality is a sin. Christians are taught to oppose gay rights, and defeated several attempts by the Government to accomplish equal gay age of consent.

Sure there is a problem, but where do most of these problems stem from?

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I can't help it if you can't see the big picture, but I'll keep trying to get people to see that tolerance is a key to a healthy society; and that screaming that religious people are mind-controlled because they believe in God is very intolerant.

I agree tolerance is a big key to the success of society; however we have to be careful of what we are tolerant of.

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It absolutely is a shame. Addiction to heavy drugs such as that is indeed a shame. It has little to do with discussing spirituality, religion and tolerance, however, unless your point is that there are organizations which are "faith based" who step out and help those addicted to those nefarious drugs.

The point I was trying to make is that you seem to think you can simply say lets all be tolerant, however see previous comment.

truthbe known.com is the place to get your questions about the origin of all religion. why be tolerant of believing the biggest lie on the planet. sitting on your duff waiting for the rapture is a contribution to the problems we are all facing as people of the planet, definitely not an answer.

WHY IS PAJARITO AFRIAD TO READ 'WHO IS THIS'? because his 'bible tells him that it is wrong to look at any thing other than the cross.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Lindsey 0]

It has everything to do with the “mainstream” religions, all religions survive through faith the belief in something without proof, and teach that this is ok.
The members of the HG cult are just one end of the scale, the same end as the suicide bomber, whilst you are probably at the other end. But you are all on the same scale.

There are extremes in everything, and there's usually less tolerance for behavior at those extremes. While you can draw some comparisons between HG and more moderate religions, I don't see how one can condemn all religious beliefs because of behavior of the outliers. Thinking like that will leave you with a very small margin of what's acceptable thinking/behavior in life....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[hairyjuan 0]

mitakuye oyasin is the phrase that i live by. it means we are all related. religion (in any Form) is a division.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Michele 1]

Hi, Broken.

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It has everything to do with the “mainstream” religions, all religions survive through faith the belief in something without proof, and teach that this is ok.
The members of the HG cult are just one end of the scale, the same end as the suicide bomber, whilst you are probably at the other end. But you are all on the same scale.

I am not sure at all where you "learned" that it was not o.k to question matters of spirituality. I've been taught the opposite; ask, ask, ask...and then ask some more. Discuss, debate, define, repeat. And then ask more about what you learned from the first asking.

At no point - literally never - have I been chastized by God, nuns, priests, rabbis, buddhists, et cetera for asking. I have, instead, been encouraged to do so. I'm sorry your experience isn't the same as mine, but I know what I've experienced, and it's diametrically opposed to what you say.

Actually, in regards to scale, you are on one end, as you are as fanatical as those on the other, i.e. Heaven's Gate, Jim Jones, Islamic suicide bombers, and so forth.

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Your missing the point, I’m not saying that religion suggest suicide, but that religion fuels false belief, it teaches its followers that faith in its particular teachings is ok and not to ask questions outside of this. Whether that is the bible, or that there is a spaceship waiting to collect your soul, and it is this fundamental close minded approach that leads to problems.

IIRC, there were many HG members who left the cult before the suicide. Same with Jim Jones. I don't think too many suicide bombers get out, but I'm not sure of that.

Dcoes religion fuel false belief, as you say? In your opinion, no. In the opinion of many billions of people, it is not a false belief, but what they stand for. Some as stridently as you, most not. So it is only opinion when you state it's false...just as it's only opinion when it's stated as true.

What I am advocating is simply this...that people are allowed to hold their own opinion and have their own experience about religion, spirituality, and God...and not be told that they are under mind control or told they are not open minded, or stupid, or arrogant. It doesn't serve your particular purpose, and frankly, it's getting tedious to hear the same argument over and over, nothing new...nothing different.

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There are 159 million Americans who identify themselves as Christian, and therefore you have 159 million people whose sacred book tells them that homosexuality is a sin. Christians are taught to oppose gay rights, and defeated several attempts by the Government to accomplish equal gay age of consent.

Sure there is a problem, but where do most of these problems stem from?

I don't believe it's the church or synygogue or temples. Rather, the data suggests that there are far fewer people who attend church regularly, who don't believe, and who don't practice a faith on a regular, personal basis than in, say, the 50's. However, crime has risen across the board. Why is that?

Dunno. But it would be equally as spurious to blame the christians as it would to blame those who don't attend a christian church (or similar institution of worship).

So to claim that it's the Christian church (which, btw, I know many that accept homosexuality as fine, and those who are homosexual are welcome there...) that instigates incidents such as the Matthew Shepard situation is just as wrong as me saying "it's the godless heathens who don't attend church that did it; therefore, all godless heathens are wrong, horrible, and murderous."

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I agree tolerance is a big key to the success of society; however we have to be careful of what we are tolerant of.

YAY, we can agree.

In this country, we are tolerant of that which is within the law. If there are laws against it, it's likely something we don't tolerate. If there's a bill or an amendment in the Bill of Rights, then likely we should respect that, as that is what this country's based on.

And one of the most fundamental rights is freedom of religion. Not freedom from it, freedom of religion. Small word - but monumental difference. It basically means that whatever god you worship, you can do so without persecution. It also means that if your religion is science, meaning that is what you believe in, do it with impunity. Same with atheism, and agnosticism, wiccan, jews, muslims, zoroastrianism, scientology, paganism, and on and on...you get the picture.

Which means we, as a country, tolerate religion of choice for everyone...not just those you (or I) happen to personally agree with. And that's a damn fine thing.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mnealtx 0]

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Either people who are different from you (whether it be in their beliefs, skin color or gender) are worthy of tolerance and respect, or they are not. Which is it?

Wow, that is the straw man to end all straw men.

In fact, you might even call it the Wicker Man.

Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of the reason why.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,594]

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What I am advocating is simply this...that people are allowed to hold their own opinion and have their own experience about religion, spirituality, and God...and not be told that they are under mind control or told they are not open minded, or stupid, or arrogant.

Now what was that quote that did the rounds here a few months back? Oh yeah, "You do NOT have the right to not be offended." God botherers deserve no more special protection than the UFO chasers or the people who leave a saucer of milk for the pixies.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Michele 1]

Agreed, Jakee. However, the same also holds true to those who tell others they're under mind control...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[jakee 1,594]

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Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of the reason why.

And I say you are confusing what a person is with what a person thinks.

How tolerant are you of extreme left wing politics?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Channman 2]

> I'd suggest a little more eloquence and a little less beating your point in with a lead pipe...

Just the thought provoking analysis I was sure would find its way into this thread, although I'm a christian myself, lurch as an atheist knows how to have a conversation.

I just might learn to do better in future threads.

[br0k3n 0]

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I am not sure at all where you "learned" that it was not o.k to question matters of spirituality. I've been taught the opposite; ask, ask, ask...and then ask some more. Discuss, debate, define, repeat. And then ask more about what you learned from the first asking.

At no point - literally never - have I been chastized by God, nuns, priests, rabbis, buddhists, et cetera for asking. I have, instead, been encouraged to do so. I'm sorry your experience isn't the same as mine, but I know what I've experienced, and it's diametrically opposed to what you say.

What questions have you been asking??? Because if you really have been asking questions then the only logical out come is to realize that religion is nothing more then an old myth…

Maybe you can answer some of the questions I have, as I’m sure that you have already asked them and have the answers..

1.Where is all the archeological proof, where is Noah’s Ark, the holy Grail, the ark of the covenant, or in fact any relic that proves that the Jesus existed or can be linked to the story..

2.Why did Jesus have to die for our sins, why didn’t god just forgive us????

3.Why is there no physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people.

4. Why is there no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus?

5. In fact why is there not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus

6.Examine the evidence for the Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the "historicity" of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus, so why believe one myth and not the other?

7.Julius Caesar has a mass of mutually supporting evidence, why doesn’t Jesus?

8.Why would a proposed magical super-being who expects everyone to believe in Him, conceal all evidence of His existence.

9.Why is there not a shinning cross in the sky?

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[jakee 1,594]

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9.Why is there not a shinning cross in the sky?

Groundskeeper Willie: Ye have the gift laddie. They call it, the shinning!

Bart: Don't you mean the shining?

GW: Shut up laddie! D'ye wanna get sued?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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2.Why did Jesus have to die for our sins, why didn’t god just forgive us????

I’m at work and don’t have the time to respond much. I’ll pick the most important of your questions. Some of the others seem silly, irrelevant, insincere, or mocking.

If you committed a crime in our court system, would the judge simply forgive you? If he didn’t give you the justice that you deserve and he let you free without penalty, then he’d be a corrupt judge. God is infinitely both holy and just. You, I, and everyone else have broken his moral laws countless times. It is completely justified that all of us should wind up in hell for our sins. We can’t pay the penalty for our transgression and will be held to account one day for everything we’ve done. God became the perfect, sinless, sacrificial lamb in the person of Jesus to pay that penalty. It is the ultimate example of love and forgiveness.

[hairyjuan 0]

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9.Why is there not a shinning cross in the sky?

Groundskeeper Willie: Ye have the gift laddie. They call it, the shinning!

Bart: Don't you mean the shining?

GW: Shut up laddie! D'ye wanna get sued?

the cross is the symbol for the SUN(jesus), a symbol is a representation of something, in this CASE the SUN, which everyone 2000 years ago knew is whatever "god" this planet might happen to have. If "god" does not resurrect himself every day, ascend the heavens, and die at SUN-SET we sure are not going to be here to believe in the myths the preist hood has erected around this fact of all religions.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Channman 2]

Another great analysis, and if I might add, without the use of attachments.

[Nightingale 0]

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At no point - literally never - have I been chastized by God, nuns, priests, rabbis, buddhists, et cetera for asking. I have, instead, been encouraged to do so. I'm sorry your experience isn't the same as mine, but I know what I've experienced, and it's diametrically opposed to what you say.

I have. My first week of religion class in high school. The teacher (nun) was talking about genesis. She talked about how adam and eve were the first people on earth, and how cain killed abel, and then cain got married. I raised my hand and asked "if eve was the only woman on earth, who did cain marry? his mother or his sister?"

The teacher started screaming at me about blasphemy and having no respect for the bible. Literally screaming.

The interesting thing is, it was an honest question. All she had to say is that the law forbidding marriage between close relatives was not given until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18–20). Abraham married his half sister (genesis 20:12).

[jakee 1,594]

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a symbol is a representation of something, in this CASE the SUN, which everyone 2000 years ago knew is whatever "god" this planet might happen to have.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here, your writing style is quite confusing. First off, your attatchment has nothing to do with your post. Second, in the prevalent european and near eastern religions of 6 AD the sun is not representative of the dominant god. Sure Zeus and Jupiter and Ammon are all gods of the sky/heavens but not the sun.

One of Apollo's aspects was driving the chariot that carried the sun across the sky, but he wasn't actually the sun, neither was he chief among the Greek or Roman gods.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,594]

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If you committed a crime in our court system, would the judge simply forgive you? If he didn’t give you the justice that you deserve and he let you free without penalty, then he’d be a corrupt judge.

How would he be any less corrupt if he punished someone else instead of you?

From reading your posts I gather that you believe that a sinner has to accept Jesus' name and repent before entering heaven, right? So just accepting Jesus' name but not being sorry for your transgressions is not enough.

So why can't repentance alone be the criteria for entering heaven and what, exactly, is the point of Jesus' suffering? A penalty is not a real penalty if it hasn't been applied to you.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I have. My first week of religion class in high school. The teacher (nun) was talking about genesis. She talked about how adam and eve were the first people on earth, and how cain killed abel, and then cain got married. I raised my hand and asked "if eve was the only woman on earth, who did cain marry? his mother or his sister?"

The teacher started screaming at me about blasphemy and having no respect for the bible. Literally screaming.

that's weird. nothing like that happened to me in CCD.

Pick up any annotated Catholic Bible & there's usually a bunch of prefaces written by modern cardinals, which usually refute the simple-minded fundamentalist approach to the Bible. The writings in the Bible must be understood in the context in which they were written. The first 5 books of the Old Testament are the oldest & you have to consider the primitive science at that time, the use of symbolism, names which have double-meanings only in ancient Hebrew, etc.

In short, you've got to read the Bible with your brain turned on. Otherwise it is easy to just pull some phrase out of context & distort it or use it to mean something it wasn't intended to, etc.

Speed Racer
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[hairyjuan 0]

what is so confusing, or hard to understand? chrishna, budha, mithra, attis, adonay, jehovah, yeshua, jesus, joshua, any other 'saviour' you care to name is a reference to the SUN. it is that simple and that true.

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[SpeedRacer 1]

hey, hairyjuan! Post more links!! I don't think you've posted enough yet.

Speed Racer
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