Lucky... 0 #51 May 11, 2006 QuoteReducing taxes has boomed the economy after the Kennedy cuts, the Regan cuts and now the Bush cuts. Ignore it if you wish, (I know this does not fit your agenda) but the facts are out there if you care to take a look. And you do not need to bring up the deficit during the Regan years. Tip O'Neal stated that the Regan budget was dead on arival and though not exactly the same, the deficit is what it is today because of a drunk congress spending spree. So, enjoy the class envy diatribe if you wish but I never got a job from a poor person.......... Clinton came into office, inherited an economy in deep recession and raised taxes. By the end of his term he had record employment rates and actually turned the deficit and the debt around. Bush came in and gave the treasury away and now, 5 years later, we have good jobs but the gov is far deeper in debt. See the difference? You guys will still blame the Dems even when the debt is 20T and dollar is competing with the Peso...... You're looking at the US economy as a one-dimensional profile rather than a dynamic, which is what it is. Furthermore, no one has said what they feel, and that is, "Fuck the elderly and homeless." Come on guys, just say what you feel. These people who shaped America and wiped our asses are old and poor and we need to support them into comfortable death. You will support Viet Nam vets, who are entering retirement, but then say fuck SS. We know what you really mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #52 May 11, 2006 QuoteReducing taxes has boomed the economy after the Kennedy cuts, the Regan cuts and now the Bush cuts. Ignore it if you wish, (I know this does not fit your agenda) but the facts are out there if you care to take a look. And you do not need to bring up the deficit during the Regan years. Tip O'Neal stated that the Regan budget was dead on arival and though not exactly the same, the deficit is what it is today because of a drunk congress spending spree. So, enjoy the class envy diatribe if you wish but I never got a job from a poor person.......... QuoteAnd you do not need to bring up the deficit during the Regan years. Tip O'Neal stated that the Regan budget was dead on arival and though not exactly the same, the deficit is what it is today because of a drunk congress spending spree. I realize righties hate to hear about that, but is impossible to talk Bushonomics w/o talking Reaganomics and Bush1's subsequent policies. It is 1 big 6 trillion dollar nightmare, with a Clinton reprieve in the middle. And now it's growing to be 2T more by Bush's end. As for Congress, they are empowered by the pres. If he puts forth a budget and they disagree, they willoften go with him or fear veto. QuoteSo, enjoy the class envy diatribe if you wish but I never got a job from a poor person.......... I never said class envy, but classism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #53 May 11, 2006 QuoteThese people who shaped America and wiped our asses are old and poor and we need to support them into comfortable death. You will support Viet Nam vets, who are entering retirement, but then say fuck SS. We know what you really mean Hey its not the rest of Americas fault that they were not born into families that could afford to send them to college. They could have pulled themselves up by their boot straps. They should have gotten a better job and saved and invested so they could be comfortable in their old age. Why support vets.. they knew what they were getting into when they joined the military. Can you think of any other cliches I missed?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #54 May 11, 2006 QuoteAgain, enoy your class envey sad world. I was taught not to worry about everbody else....... I have no class envy, I just don't want my tax dollars going to some rich corp so they can dole out the jobs as they see fit. So if you saw an obvioulsy innocent man getting convicted, you would say/do nothing? Not your business. This isolation is how the US gov works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #55 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLet me break it down for you. I'm pissed off about what Bush, Republicans and Democrats have done by spending our money like a bunch of morons. If I had my way, I'd toss about 90% on both sides out and start over again. - Please tell me what the Dems have done. Not waht they conspired to do or wanted to do, but fiscally, what have they done and what is the outcome? Too tired and too late to get into it right now, but why don't you read a little about how they have stood in the way of Social Security reform, which we cannot afford to support any longer. - It's your arguement, you read and make it. Also, if we kill SS, then what do seniors do? What do disabled do? Die in the streets, litterally? You can't seriously propose a change w/o addressing problems. Perhaps wave the majic wand of the Libertarian Party where social welfare comes from the church and from charitable contributions? It's easy to solve the woes of the fiscal gov when we ignore the most compelling issue about the budget. And then you or I need SS, disability, etc..... Bush offered alternatives to Social Security but the Dem opposition took the position that Americans are too dumb to be in charge of their own retirement plans. Surely you remember? - Oh, one more question: Please tell me what the Dems have done. Not waht they conspired to do or wanted to do, but fiscally, what have they done and what is the outcome? You were tired, ok, now you have a full 8 hours of sleep for which answer this. Already answered when I posted the Citizens Against Govt. Waste. Unfortunately you fail to see a problem unless it's a conspiracy and you ignore the pork spending done by individual politicians. - Please tell me what the Dems have done. Not waht they conspired to do or wanted to do, but fiscally, what have they done and what is the outcome? Fine, acquiescense noted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #56 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLet me break it down for you. I'm pissed off about what Bush, Republicans and Democrats have done by spending our money like a bunch of morons. If I had my way, I'd toss about 90% on both sides out and start over again. - Please tell me what the Dems have done. Not waht they conspired to do or wanted to do, but fiscally, what have they done and what is the outcome? Too tired and too late to get into it right now, but why don't you read a little about how they have stood in the way of Social Security reform, which we cannot afford to support any longer. - It's your arguement, you read and make it. Also, if we kill SS, then what do seniors do? What do disabled do? Die in the streets, litterally? You can't seriously propose a change w/o addressing problems. Perhaps wave the majic wand of the Libertarian Party where social welfare comes from the church and from charitable contributions? It's easy to solve the woes of the fiscal gov when we ignore the most compelling issue about the budget. And then you or I need SS, disability, etc..... Bush offered alternatives to Social Security but the Dem opposition took the position that Americans are too dumb to be in charge of their own retirement plans. Surely you remember? - Bush's plan included doing to SS what he did to prescriptions: throw them at the corporations along with huge amounts of tax money and see what happens. I think teh results are huge corp profits and seniors lacking affordable meds. Those dumb Americans, the ones who are opposed to the 31% approval from the smart Americans, saw it comming and chiucked it. Perhaps you missed my question in ths very post to which you replied: Also, if we kill SS, then what do seniors do? What do disabled do? Die in the streets, litterally? You can't seriously propose a change w/o addressing problems. Perhaps wave the majic wand of the Libertarian Party where social welfare comes from the church and from charitable contributions? It's easy to solve the woes of the fiscal gov when we ignore the most compelling issue about the budget. And then you or I need SS, disability, etc..... Again, what is your answer to eldery who are indigent? Let's see your majic wand........... Do a search on this forum. This was debated to death at the time and suggestions and alternatives were given. I'm not interested in rehashing it again. - Also, if we kill SS, then what do seniors do? What do disabled do? Die in the streets, litterally? You can't seriously propose a change w/o addressing problems. Perhaps wave the majic wand of the Libertarian Party where social welfare comes from the church and from charitable contributions? It's easy to solve the woes of the fiscal gov when we ignore the most compelling issue about the budget. And then you or I need SS, disability, etc..... Again, acquiescense noted. BTW, you could even list a couple, but the truth is you feel, "Personal responsibility - fuck the elderly and the poor." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #57 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteThese people who shaped America and wiped our asses are old and poor and we need to support them into comfortable death. You will support Viet Nam vets, who are entering retirement, but then say fuck SS. We know what you really mean Hey its not the rest of Americas fault that they were not born into families that could afford to send them to college. They could have pulled themselves up by their boot straps. They should have gotten a better job and saved and invested so they could be comfortable in their old age. Why support vets.. they knew what they were getting into when they joined the military. Can you think of any other cliches I missed?? 'Bout covers it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #58 May 11, 2006 Quote'Bout covers it she forgot "But, Clinton got a blowjob", "He LIED!!", and "it is what it is". Also, "Takes one to know one", and "Enough is enough" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #59 May 11, 2006 >Clinton came into office, inherited an economy in deep recession and raised taxes.< This right here is not ever close to being true"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #60 May 11, 2006 Quote Bush offered alternatives to Social Security but the Dem opposition took the position that Americans are too dumb to be in charge of their own retirement plans. Surely you remember?- So, you like Bush's idea of enlarging the government yet again by bringing the NYSE and more banks into the SS program? Increasing the bureaucracy saves us money how? Right now we have more money flowing IN to the off budget SS than we have going out. The problem is that that money is being used to keep Bush's record deficits from being even bigger. They would have put an end to that if they were serious about fixing social security but then that would have looked too much like a "lock box" wouldn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #61 May 11, 2006 Quote>Clinton came into office, inherited an economy in deep recession and raised taxes.< This right here is not ever close to being true School is in session. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1993 The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 (or OBRA-93) was passed by the 103rd United States Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. It has also been referred to as the "Deficit Reduction Act of 1993." It created 36 percent and 39.6 rates for individuals, and created a 35 percent rate for corporations. The cap on Medicare taxes was repealed, transportation fuels taxes were hiked by 4.3 cents per gallon, and the taxable portion of Social Security benefits was raised. Raising taxes on corporations.... what a concept. Ultimately every Republican in Congress voted against the bill, as did a number of Democrats. Vice-President Al Gore broke a tie in the Senate on both the actual bill and the conference report. In the House the bill passed by only a two-vote margin, 218-216. President Clinton signed the bill on August 10, 1993. So Clinton fought this thru Congress. The entire bill was very controversial. Many Republicans warned that many of the bills provisions would result in economic catastrophe and that deficit would actually increase. Those Repubs are so smart.... The recently elected President Clinton was criticized by many for what was perceived as a reversal of his campaign pledge to cut middle class taxes although in actuality taxes increased on only the top 2% of taxpayers, and while many Americans initially were supportive of changes in the tax code to help the economy and lower the deficit (according to public opinion polls taken at the time), by the mid-term elections of 1994, many American voters were galvanized by the Republican charge that the Democratic Party had raised their taxes. And who raises taxes on the rich? Bush niw lowers them for the rich.... do the math. The bill, which both raised taxes and cut government spending, has been credited as the major cause behind the deficit reduction and eventual surpluses during the 1990s. The theory holds that federal budget deficits increase both inflation and interest rates. These two phenomena are widely known to cause economic stagnation. Indeed, when inflation increases, often the Federal Reserve will raise interest rates to contain the inflation. __________________________________________________________ TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK DEBT IS A GOOD THING: The U.S. government pays for its debt by issuing additional debt instruments (such as Treasury Bonds and Treasury Notes). As U.S. government debt instruments are one of the safest investments in the world, they pay some of the lowest interest in the world. This causes the rate charged on federal bonds to act as a floor. This is because most other debt instruments are more risky (it is more likely that other issuers will default on their bonds than it is likely that the U.S. government will default on its bonds, and so those other issuers must pay higher interest rates to compensate for the higher risk). As more U.S. government debt is issued, there is an increasing demand for world capital to pay for these instruments. As the supply of these instruments increase, the interest rates paid by the U.S. government must increase to attract additional investors. As U.S. debt becomes more costly to carry, debt around the world also becomes more costly. This increase in worldwide interest rates causes it to be more expensive to operate businesses. This suppresses economic growth. It also causes companies to charge more for their products and services to pay for the more expensive debt. This causes inflation. ______________________________________________________________ School is recessed, go skydive now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #62 May 11, 2006 My point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #63 May 11, 2006 QuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #64 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - Got a headace yet??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #65 May 11, 2006 QuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... So your entire theory on macroeconomics is: tax cuts = economic expansion tax increases = economic recession All this time I thought the equation was: 1. Steal underpants 2. ? 3. Profit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #66 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - Got a headace yet?? Remember when Clinton was trying to sell his 15% tax increase on corporations and he claimed businesses like a pizza parlors could simply raise the price of pizza to cover the increase. Clintonomics at it's best. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #67 May 11, 2006 Quote Also, if we kill SS, then what do seniors do? What do disabled do? Die in the streets, litterally? You can't seriously propose a change w/o addressing problems. Social Security does a number of things. It provides disability insurance, life insurance, and a safety net for people who reach the ends of their work lives with insufficient savings to retire. Nearly everybody agrees these things are good although we disagree on who should pay for them. It's also a mandatory retirement savings plan with horrible benefits. I have to make it six years past my statistically expected lifetime to earn a 0% inflation adjusted rate of return on my investments and can't leave anything to heirs other than my wife. If I invested the same money in stock and bond indexes I'd probably have triple the annual benefits. This should end. It's an excuse for a regressive tax which costs low wage earners 12.4% of their income of which only half shows up on their pay stubs. This should end. Quote And then you or I need SS, disability, etc..... I'll put $15K into my 401K this year, my take home pay will increase if I become disabled (60% of base pay, but without any taxes or retirement savings deductions), and our mortgage gets paid off if either my wife or I die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #68 May 11, 2006 > It has worked and it is working now. Let's say you have two neighbors. Neighbor A has a house that he rents. He has a Camaro, a boat and a big SUV. He owes $75,000 in credit card debt, and has two kids that need to get through college. His plan for that is to get some more credit cards. Neighbor B owns a similar house. He has $30,000 left to pay on his mortgage. He has a Camaro and a bicycle. He has $25,000 in his IRA, and is going to grad school. His kids will be going to college soon, and his plan to pay for that is to work some overtime and apply for a better job. Which one is doing better? If you chose neigbor A, then I can see how you think that it's "working." (After all, he has a boat!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #69 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - It would be nice if they did. What's the average, 7% I think? I guess that's better than when Snow was running CSX and they paid less than 0%. And yes, you can pay less than zero if you receive subsidies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #70 May 11, 2006 QuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... All right, schhol is back in, or should we call it detention? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush The tail end of the late 1980s recession, that had dogged most of Bush's term in office, was a contributing factor to his defeat in the 1992 Presidential election. The coalition victory in the Persian Gulf War led to a feeling that Bush's re-election was a sure thing, but the economic recession led to Bush's becoming less and less popular. The precipitious decline in popularity was also due to a perception that Mr. Bush was "out of touch" with the American worker. One incident that led credence to this suspicion was an incident in which President Bush did not know how a supermarket scanner worked. And this: Several other factors were key in his defeat, including agreeing in 1990 to raise taxes despite his famous "Read my lips: No new taxes" pledge not to institute any new taxes. In doing so, Bush alienated many members of his conservative base, losing their support for his re-election. However, Mr. Bush raised taxes to address an ever increasing budget deficit, caused by the tax cuts put into effect by President Reagan, Bush's predecessor. Ironically, when campaigning against Reagan in 1980, Bush refered to Reagan's tax proposals as voodoo economics. Then this: According to the widely-used definition of a recession, two quarters of negative growth, the late eighties recession only covered a brief period in 1987 (although not in the United States), and another in 1990–1991. By measures such as unemployment and public perception, the North American economy was in recession continuously for years after 1987, with only brief periods of revival. This establishes the duration of the recession: It soon turned out that the quick recovery was illusory, and by 1990, economic malaise had returned. For the next several years high unemployment, massive government budgetary deficits, and slow Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth affected the United States until late 1992 and Canada until 1995. While Canada enjoyed a brief recovery in 1994, the recession is believed to have lasted longer there due to the stress placed on the economy by the spectre of Quebec separatism. Yea, the country was in recession during most all of Bush's term. Furthermore, the national debt grew more vertically than even during Reagan. Detention is out...... there was a recession that was at best just starting to recover as Clinton took office. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #71 May 11, 2006 Quote> It has worked and it is working now. Let's say you have two neighbors. Neighbor A has a house that he rents. He has a Camaro, a boat and a big SUV. He owes $75,000 in credit card debt, and has two kids that need to get through college. His plan for that is to get some more credit cards. Neighbor B owns a similar house. He has $30,000 left to pay on his mortgage. He has a Camaro and a bicycle. He has $25,000 in his IRA, and is going to grad school. His kids will be going to college soon, and his plan to pay for that is to work some overtime and apply for a better job. Which one is doing better? If you chose neigbor A, then I can see how you think that it's "working." (After all, he has a boat!) You are not serious....right? If you are wtf do you take me for?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #72 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - Got a headace yet?? Yes, I took you to school twice and you will still deny it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #73 May 11, 2006 Because that Bush agreed to raise taxes slowing the recovery. Remember the "Read my lips" broken promise??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #74 May 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMy point was we were not in a recession when Clinton came into office. He started that with the tax increases..... Next thing you know someone will try to convince us corporations pay taxes. - Got a headace yet?? Remember when Clinton was trying to sell his 15% tax increase on corporations and he claimed businesses like a pizza parlors could simply raise the price of pizza to cover the increase. Clintonomics at it's best. - And the result wassssssssssssssssss???? Most sustained furtile economic growth in US history. Not making your argument.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #75 May 11, 2006 Hell, I don't know why I ever replyed wikopedia? "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
