skybytch 273
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wmw999 2,587
Someone brought that up in another thread; apparently France did that with Spain when faced with a similar problem.
Of course, that's a much shorter border. But that would be a good start. Most people would rather be close to home and not hungry than far away and not hungry.
Wendy W.
Of course, that's a much shorter border. But that would be a good start. Most people would rather be close to home and not hungry than far away and not hungry.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
MC208B 0
Why is it the United States problem that Mexico is such a shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out? Fuckem!
Channman 2
> billions of dollars in aid to build up Mexico's infrastructure...
Being a large Oil Producing country, how about Mexico pony up the Billions to build up their infrastructure as well as fix their corrupt government.
As for me, I think we are sending Billions over the border through illegal activity (Drugs) as well as illegal migrants sending money home.
Lets Build the Wall, with trenches and a mine field.
OK the mine field maybe a little harsh, so to show we care we can place water stations within the mine field.
OK, OK I'm only kidding, just the Wall with trenches and razor wire and armed helicopters with missles.
Being a large Oil Producing country, how about Mexico pony up the Billions to build up their infrastructure as well as fix their corrupt government.
As for me, I think we are sending Billions over the border through illegal activity (Drugs) as well as illegal migrants sending money home.
Lets Build the Wall, with trenches and a mine field.
OK the mine field maybe a little harsh, so to show we care we can place water stations within the mine field. OK, OK I'm only kidding, just the Wall with trenches and razor wire and armed helicopters with missles.
billvon 3,114
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> Why is it the United States problem that Mexico is such a
>shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out?
We decided Iraq was a shithole of corruption that had to be straightened out, and are apparently willing to spend close to a trillion dollars (and thousands of US lives) to do it. Surely Mexico is at least as deserving - and the effort would not require thousands of US soldiers to die, which would be nice.
>shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out?
We decided Iraq was a shithole of corruption that had to be straightened out, and are apparently willing to spend close to a trillion dollars (and thousands of US lives) to do it. Surely Mexico is at least as deserving - and the effort would not require thousands of US soldiers to die, which would be nice.
MC208B 0
Quote> Why is it the United States problem that Mexico is such a
>shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out?
We decided Iraq was a shithole of corruption that had to be straightened out, and are apparently willing to spend close to a trillion dollars (and thousands of US lives) to do it. Surely Mexico is at least as deserving - and the effort would not require thousands of US soldiers to die, which would be nice.
No argument there Bill, we shouldn't be in Iraq's business either.
Andy9o8 2
QuoteWhy is it the United States problem that Mexico is such a shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out?
Not an unreasonable question.
The answer is: because, like it or not, they've managed to make their problem our problem. And we can’t just ignore it; it won't go away; it will only get worse. So unless we build a Berlin Wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific, replete with guard towers, machine guns, minefields and attack dogs (very tacky; terrible for property values), or go to war with Mexico (eh, it’s been done), our best bet, like it or not, would be to roll up our sleeves and try to develop some kind of Marshall Plan to turn Mexico’s economy around, as much for our benefit as for theirs.
Having said all that, the place really is a shithole of corruption, and unless something’s done about that, flushing US dollars down the toilets of Guadalajara will be as pointless as flushing them down the toilets of Fallujah already is.
lurch 0
Solution suggestion:
Once upon a time in America there was this informal way of training kids for the adult world: give them jobs. Serious ones, not lawn-sale-scale-make-5$, but real jobs. Apprentice in a pharmacy. Cleaning rollers in a print shop. Whatever.
I understand the evolution of conditions through the industrial revolution, kids working 80-hour weeks in factories getting mutilated and the myriad abuses that led up to today's level of control of kids in jobs. I understand the history. But its so far overboard in the overprotection direction as to make it all but impossible for anyone ages 11-17 to get a job or make any money at all, at least in the suburban and city environments I experienced. Farm life may be different, I always got the impression kids in rural areas got handed adult responsibilities sooner.
Let the kids have jobs again, take the leash off the 15-year old entrepreneurs, let the 13-18 year old set man the drive throughs flip the burgers pick the lettuce and the demand for illegals will vanish, (or at least decline) the kids will learn how to earn and have something better to do than Columbine each other pretend they are gangsters and worry about Brittney freakin' Spears. The jobs will be getting done, the money stays in America and winds up in your kids' checking and savings accounts, the ones all you parents are teaching em how to use responsibly, right?
I spent ages 0-15 living in poverty conditions. If anyone would have hired me at 13, 14, I'd have worked. I tried. The only people who will ALLOW you to work are little old ladies want you to mow the lawn, and their idea of pay scale tended to date from WWII. Being paid 3$ for 6 hours work because you're a kid and encouraged to save it for the college you know costs $50,000 is degrading.
Once upon a time in America there was this informal way of training kids for the adult world: give them jobs. Serious ones, not lawn-sale-scale-make-5$, but real jobs. Apprentice in a pharmacy. Cleaning rollers in a print shop. Whatever.
I understand the evolution of conditions through the industrial revolution, kids working 80-hour weeks in factories getting mutilated and the myriad abuses that led up to today's level of control of kids in jobs. I understand the history. But its so far overboard in the overprotection direction as to make it all but impossible for anyone ages 11-17 to get a job or make any money at all, at least in the suburban and city environments I experienced. Farm life may be different, I always got the impression kids in rural areas got handed adult responsibilities sooner.
Let the kids have jobs again, take the leash off the 15-year old entrepreneurs, let the 13-18 year old set man the drive throughs flip the burgers pick the lettuce and the demand for illegals will vanish, (or at least decline) the kids will learn how to earn and have something better to do than Columbine each other pretend they are gangsters and worry about Brittney freakin' Spears. The jobs will be getting done, the money stays in America and winds up in your kids' checking and savings accounts, the ones all you parents are teaching em how to use responsibly, right?
I spent ages 0-15 living in poverty conditions. If anyone would have hired me at 13, 14, I'd have worked. I tried. The only people who will ALLOW you to work are little old ladies want you to mow the lawn, and their idea of pay scale tended to date from WWII. Being paid 3$ for 6 hours work because you're a kid and encouraged to save it for the college you know costs $50,000 is degrading.
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.
rehmwa 2
QuoteSolution suggestion:
Once upon a time in America there was this informal way of training kids for the adult world: give them jobs.
thank you
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Enrique 0
QuoteWhy is it the United States problem that Mexico is such a shithole of corruption and we need to straighten them out? Fuckem!
Bear in mind that it is not only Mexicans crossing the border, there are also Nicaraguans, Ecuatorians, Venezuelans, etc. I hate to break the news to you, but if the U.S. "fucks us" and the rest of Central and South America as you very pollitely put it, you will have no: strawberries, oranges, cooks at almost 90% of your restaurants, clean restrooms. There even is a good percentage of politicians in some Cities and local Congresses.
You would have to fuck us all and that, my friend, doesn't lead to good politics. The US is not the most loved Country in the world right now. Just imagine what the US would do without the drugs that southern Countries supply... or without the oil coming from Mexico and Venezuela.
Bigotry is another factor that clouds the vision of certain US nationals. The argument that denies the existence of corruption in the US is clearly shortsighted. It may be a different kind of corruption, or at a different level, but it is, at the end, corruption. Immigration, drugs, and trafikking in general would not be the problem it is for the US without the help of some crooked government officials and politicians.
And no, I don't have any cold hard evidence to show you as someone suggested a couple of months earlier. It is common sense and a quick look at history and current affairs.
Enrique 0
QuoteSolution suggestion:
Quote
Once upon a time in America there was this informal way of training kids for the adult world: give them jobs.
I totally agree with you. The only reason people and companies hire illegal workers is because the jobs are vacant and the labor is too expensive in the U.S.
Take it to Congress!
billvon 3,114
> let the 13-18 year old set man the drive throughs flip the burgers
> pick the lettuce and the demand for illegals will vanish, (or at least
> decline)
Why wouldn't the demand for 13-18 year old illegals just increase? The reason that there's a demand is that illegal immigrants will generally work for less money than US workers; probably true of children as well.
> pick the lettuce and the demand for illegals will vanish, (or at least
> decline)
Why wouldn't the demand for 13-18 year old illegals just increase? The reason that there's a demand is that illegal immigrants will generally work for less money than US workers; probably true of children as well.
Pssst.... Hey Enrique.
We don't have a problem with people being in our country legally. It's the ILLEGALS we have a problem with.
And guess what else, Enrique. If we kick out all the Illegals, we will still have fruits and vegetables. It just means we may have to pay more for them. Know what? I don't really care because it just means the agriculture companies will have to pay a higher wage to get Legal workers to do the job. If that means having to pay more for strawberries and grapes, then so be it. It's still less expensive than all the money I am spending to give the children of illegals an education, pay for the damage they cause due to driving uninsured, pay for their medical treatment etc.
Oh, and one more thing. That little race card you are trying to play...well I'm sure you can figure out what you can do with it.
edited to add: Please let me know if you would like to compare Mexicos Immigration Laws with the US. Then we can decide who's trying to "fuck" who.
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We don't have a problem with people being in our country legally. It's the ILLEGALS we have a problem with.
And guess what else, Enrique. If we kick out all the Illegals, we will still have fruits and vegetables. It just means we may have to pay more for them. Know what? I don't really care because it just means the agriculture companies will have to pay a higher wage to get Legal workers to do the job. If that means having to pay more for strawberries and grapes, then so be it. It's still less expensive than all the money I am spending to give the children of illegals an education, pay for the damage they cause due to driving uninsured, pay for their medical treatment etc.
Oh, and one more thing. That little race card you are trying to play...well I'm sure you can figure out what you can do with it.
edited to add: Please let me know if you would like to compare Mexicos Immigration Laws with the US. Then we can decide who's trying to "fuck" who.
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SkyDekker 1,465
I am asking this, mainly cause I am too lazy to look it up but does anybody know:
1) how many illegal people are employed in the US?
2) how many people are looking for a job?
1) how many illegal people are employed in the US?
2) how many people are looking for a job?
Enrique 0
Please read my previous posts. I DO NOT ADVOCATE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION... whether from the South to the North or viceversa. I don't like Americans being illegaly on Mexico's coastline, either. Who do you think comes to live to Mexican beaches? Big spenders? Not entirely. A lot of the tourism we get doesn't leave much money for the Country. They spend most of it on fireworks and beer. There are certain communities where U.S. citizens close-off public acces to our beaches and defend "their property" in unacceptable ways.
My point is: big walls and guns will not solve the problem. It is much more complicated than that. You need us as much as we need you. Paying more for grapes is like paying more for gas... you will not like it.
Plus, corruption in Mexico, which is very real, is no different than corruption in the US. Thus, it is not the main reason why people immigrate. Different economies, different opportunities.
I think Lisa has a good point.
My point is: big walls and guns will not solve the problem. It is much more complicated than that. You need us as much as we need you. Paying more for grapes is like paying more for gas... you will not like it.
Plus, corruption in Mexico, which is very real, is no different than corruption in the US. Thus, it is not the main reason why people immigrate. Different economies, different opportunities.
I think Lisa has a good point.
QuoteI am asking this, mainly cause I am too lazy to look it up but does anybody know:
1) how many illegal people are employed in the US?
Estimates are about 12 million illegals. I don't know how many are employed. My guess is this would be very difficult to determine.
Quote2) how many people are looking for a job?
Again, my guess would be this is very hard to determine due simply because they are illegal.
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SkyDekker 1,465
Quote2) how many people are looking for a job?
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Again, my guess would be this is very hard to determine due simply because they are illegal.
Sorry, should have been more specific. How many LEGAL people are looking for a job?
I think the reason people immigrate from Mexico and other countries in SA says more about the ineffectiveness of their govt. Look at all the economic possibilities Mexico has. They have huge oil reserves, beautiful beaches, a very interesting history, and fertile land and people with a very strong work ethic. So why isn't the economy better with all these resources?
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SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteThey have huge oil reserves, beautiful beaches, a very interesting history, and fertile land and people with a very strong work ethic. So why isn't the economy better with all these resources?
Geography and infrastructure...plus history doesn't pay that well.
QuoteQuote2) how many people are looking for a job?
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Again, my guess would be this is very hard to determine due simply because they are illegal.
Sorry, should have been more specific. How many LEGAL people are looking for a job?
IIRC US unemployment rate is around 4.7% which is in essence considered 0% unemployment because there are always people changing jobs.
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Enrique 0
QuoteSo why isn't the economy better with all these resources?
I am no economist, but crooked politicians come to mind (i.e., corruption, as you well said). Individualistic thinking... the lack of a Master Plan to run the Country (every political party has their own agenda, and every time they are in office, they throw down most of what the opposition party did and starts with their own "fresh" idea).
QuoteQuoteThey have huge oil reserves, beautiful beaches, a very interesting history, and fertile land and people with a very strong work ethic. So why isn't the economy better with all these resources?
Geography and infrastructure...plus history doesn't pay that well.
It makes it an interesting place for tourists to go. IIRC Mexico also has a 10% hotel tax as does Belize. Lots of jobs in tourism.
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No, it's not a quick fix. It would take years of work, billions of dollars in aid to build up Mexico's infrastructure, a committment to reform in the Mexican government and unprecedented cooperation between the two countries. But it's already been proven that there is no quick fix to this problem. If the Mexican worker could find work at home that would allow him/her to support themselves and their families, there would be no reason for them to come to the US other than as tourists.
imho, those of us in the United States need to stop thinking of Mexicans as a cheap labor force or as criminals and start thinking of them as human beings who have the same wants, needs and dreams as we do. Throwing up bigger walls won't stop anyone who is determined to find a better life for themselves and their families. As long as people in Mexico see the US as a place where they can find that better life, they will come here - legally or illegally - whereas if they could see that better life as being possible in Mexico, why would they bother to leave?
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