Trent 0 #101 May 1, 2006 QuoteHow about the immigrants who enter their own communities, work hard and never learn the language? How do they fit in? Life isn't black and white.... Wouldn't that just increase the "us and them" feeling that is already prevalent here? What makes it so hard for you to understand that it ISN'T asking too much for people to make an effort to integrate when they come here? QuotePublic school or private school? If it is public school, sounds like your friends are either part of the problem...or profitting from the problem. Neither should be a good thing in your book.... Public schools. And neither IS a good thing in my book... and I told them so. But what can I say to them when it is the government that is offering them these jobs? In fact I told them just this weekend that I think it sucks that they have to teach all but 2 hours in spanish... and they agree. They were hired to be subject specific teachers (math, science), but since they spoke spanish... they were "urged" into these positions. QuoteImmigrants have nothing to do with that....though they are easy to blame, specially those who clearly stand out due to a different skin tone. Except that having workers who work for less than the "going" wages averages us all down. Except that having large groups of people NOT paying taxes and putting a strain on infrastruction starts to break that infrastructure over time. Except that millions of dollars flowing out of the country doesn't do much to keep things flowing here. Except that when you can't find work for millions of people crossing weekly... they have to do something and go somewhere... and until they're (if they find it) working, things around that place aren't so great. But you're right... that doesn't help make a shithole... QuoteIf you are worried about becoming a 3rd world shithole, you should start with your own administration. They are squandering money all over the world killing people...sadly enough there is no money left to care for the people in your own country....that's how you become a shithole.... ...BUT GEORGE BUSH DOES!! NOW I see! Thank you! Quoteyes it is different....I am sorry that nuance is lost on you, but then it is evident from your other arguments in this thread. Well, my apologies to you professor, for not understanding your subtleties! Clearly I AM the ignorant racist xenophobe that you subtly imply. But I don't get nuance, so I'm sure that you didn't REALLY try to imply anything of the sort. I'll go back to being ignorant so you can go back to feeling superior. QuoteBullshit...just go take a look at Switzerland, or Belgium. Well, since it "works" in 2 tiny european countries... it must work everywhere! Take a look at the former soviet states... take a look at... canada... ... the basque regions... works great and isn't at all harmful in any way.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #102 May 1, 2006 QuoteNo, sorry, that was sarcasm, which is a literary device. Sorry, as SkyDekker points out... I have no capacity for nuance, you can add sarcasm to that list. But only if you add that you have no capacity for responding to my comment about the indians of South American who haven't changed in centuries... but tend to die out when they do change. QuoteOf course we have a culture, and of course it was not destroyed when millions of Irish came over. It changed, certainly, but cultures that do not change die. How much has Chinese culture really changed? How much has British culture really changed? How much has Middle Eastern nations' cultures changed? Really? QuoteI'm just slamming the idea that Irish, African, Mexican etc immigrants 'destroy our culture.' Far from it - they make it stronger. Immigrants who come through the right way, work hard, play the game, and integrate DEFINITELY make us stronger. Immigrants who come here illegally to make money, send it home, then pop out a few instant citizens so they don't have to leave... don't. Of course, your argument will probably be that this doesn't happen in any significant numbers. QuoteThe Star Spangled Banner HAS been translated into Spanish (and most other languages.) Our culture didn't collapse. Heck, consider it a compliment that other countries want to hear it in words that they better understand! Surely you'd be more miffed if they didn't want to hear it at all. It's not the translation that bothers me, it's the push to make it a legitimate alternative version that is accepted by people. THAT is crap. THAT is actually happening. QuoteWe've had no official language for 200 years, and have done fine even though most of our society has come from other countries. The sky is really not about to fall. We've done fine in the past, when a greater percentage of our population were immigrants. We'll do fine today as well. But it'd be a nice $ saver to not have to teach/vote/call/litigate in foreign languages. It'd also make sure that people could actually understand what is being said, instead of having an activist tell them that Americans are trying to kill/opress/take advantage of them and that they should vote for Kerry to stop it. If you're okay with millions of people being completely ignorant of the common language here... then we can't really talk about it, can we? No, the sky didn't just start to fall and it's not going to fall tomorrow... but why keep going down a path that eventually will lead us to a crisis when we can do something now? ***No, it _is_ a problem. Just as there is a problem with white male criminals from Georgia, or with white male wife-beaters on welfare. Would be silly to generalize that as a problem with all white males. quote] You're right... caucasians in trailer parks deserve more national attention than immigration since they statistically (you're honest, so I'll assume you have stats to back it up) cause just as much problems as illegal immigrants do. Bill, you LIVE in CA, you know what I'm talking about and it seems that you're intentionally being dishonest about it. I guess there's not much we can argue if it's your opinion that everything is okay with the way things are now. Illegals are fine, leave 'em alone, right? And for the last time, when I'm talking about immigration problems, I'm talking about ANY illegal immigrants or ANY immigrants that come here and DON'T make any effort to become a part of America. I'm NOT talking about ALL immigrants. But since you guys have mastered the subtleties of language, I didn't have to say that, did I?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #103 May 1, 2006 >How much has Chinese culture really changed? I can never tell when people here are kidding . . . If that's really a serious question, go by Dongguan or Shenzhen some time and tell me if you honestly think that Chinese culture hasn't changed in the past 100 years. (Hint - Google 'largest shopping mall in the world.') >Immigrants who come through the right way, work hard, play the > game, and integrate DEFINITELY make us stronger. Agreed, and with the exception of 'play the game' (which I assume means 'come here legally') most fall under that category. >Immigrants who come here illegally to make money, send it home, > then pop out a few instant citizens so they don't have to leave... > don't. Of course, your argument will probably be that this doesn't >happen in any significant numbers. I agree here too. That happens in signficant _numbers_ - it just doesn't happen as a large percentage of mexican immigrants. (Furthermore, I see no evidence that it happens more often than it happens to US citizens living in trailer parks.) >It's not the translation that bothers me, it's the push to make it >a legitimate alternative version that is accepted by people. It IS an alternate version. You can decide it's not legitimate - that's fine. But are you going to pass a law saying that a little league game in Descanso can't use whatever language they want, whether it's english, vietnamese or spanish? >But it'd be a nice $ saver to not have to teach/vote/call/litigate in >foreign languages. Nope, it wouldn't. They did a study in Alaska to see if they could save money by not printing stuff in local Inuit languages. Aside from the initial translation, there was no significant additional cost they could find. The question often devolves to "is it better to enforce monolingualism, or is it better to have a multilingual society?" I think it's better for america as a country to be able to speak more easily with the rest of the world - especially since it hasn't hampered our ability to communicate in our primary language. For a good overview of this, I recommend "Why don't they learn english?" by Lucy Tse. >It'd also make sure that people could actually understand what >is being said, instead of having an activist tell them that Americans > are trying to kill/opress/take advantage of them and that they > should vote for Kerry to stop it. A nonsense partisan slam. A reply in kind would be "oh, but republicans hate immigrants!" - but that would make as little sense. >No, the sky didn't just start to fall and it's not going to fall >tomorrow... but why keep going down a path that eventually will lead >us to a crisis when we can do something now? Because that very path that you fear created the greatest country on the planet. And I for one do not want to destroy that which made us great. >Bill, you LIVE in CA, you know what I'm talking about and it >seems that you're intentionally being dishonest about it. Yes, and I live in San Diego, a city that has one of the highest percentages of mexicans in the US. And oddly, I can still vote, order food, pray, and sing the Star Spangled Banner in english. >I guess there's not much we can argue if it's your opinion that >everything is okay with the way things are now. Illegals are fine, >leave 'em alone, right? I never said that. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law and should be deported. We should change laws so that it is harder for illegal immigrants to come over and work, and easier for mexicans who want to come here legally to do so. But that's because I believe in the rule of law, not because I fear that the mexicans who work in the yards here pose any threat to me, my family or my culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #104 May 1, 2006 Quotemust be my imagination....but I only hear talk of illegal mexican immigrants....I know there are quite a few illegal western europeans in the US...and a fair amount of illegal canadians in the US...I don't hear much complaining about them....but then they are quite a bit harder to pick out of a crowd. Hmm where did I put my BLAME CANADA button Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #105 May 1, 2006 QuoteIf that's really a serious question, go by Dongguan or Shenzhen some time and tell me if you honestly think that Chinese culture hasn't changed in the past 100 years. (Hint - Google 'largest shopping mall in the world.') I don't have to Google anything... I've been there. I've seen that despite the modernization of late... there is still an identifiable culture that has remained similar for centuries. But, like I said before, the "culture" definition is something we can go back and forth all day. You know what I'm talking about, but you won't agree. QuoteAgreed, and with the exception of 'play the game' (which I assume means 'come here legally') most fall under that category. What? There's more legal immigrants coming into the country daily than illegal? Again, living near a border... that's either naive or dishonest. QuoteI agree here too. That happens in signficant _numbers_ - it just doesn't happen as a large percentage of mexican immigrants. Re-read my last post... it doesn't matter WHO is doing it... it happens too often. The trailer parkers aren't sending their money abroad either. QuoteBut are you going to pass a law saying that a little league game in Descanso can't use whatever language they want, whether it's english, vietnamese or spanish? You're right, our national anthem should be "a living, breathing song." We shouldn't bother encouraging people to learn the language... let's just translate everything for them to make it better for all of us. I'm seriously starting to think that you're just arguing for the sake of it now. QuoteNope, it wouldn't. They did a study in Alaska to see if they could save money by not printing stuff in local Inuit languages. Aside from the initial translation, there was no significant additional cost they could find. It wouldn't? A study in a state with the population of a large city is conclusive that it wouldn't save us anything? BS. The initial savings would be HUGE nationwide. The ongoing savings of using less printing and less paper (or whatever the medium) would be significant. Monetary benefits aside... it'd surely encourage people to learn the language, which is a good thing. Just because one language is used in government and in official settings... doesn't mean people can't speak another language... that's a horrible argument you're trying to make. QuoteA nonsense partisan slam. A reply in kind would be "oh, but republicans hate immigrants!" - but that would make as little sense. Except that it does happen... and the lack of ability of people to actually understand speeches, news, and debates only makes it easier. Don't think it happens... ooookay. QuoteYes, and I live in San Diego, a city that has one of the highest percentages of mexicans in the US. And oddly, I can still vote, order food, pray, and sing the Star Spangled Banner in english. But people who don't speak english can't! That's the problem. We're divided by a language barrier in our own country. It's silly to not think it'd be a good thing that people living here should speak english. It also doesn't imply that they should forget their own language. QuoteI never said that. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law and should be deported. We should change laws so that it is harder for illegal immigrants to come over and work, and easier for mexicans who want to come here legally to do so. But that's because I believe in the rule of law, not because I fear that the mexicans who work in the yards here pose any threat to me, my family or my culture. Good. At least you want people to do it right. But to not also want (hope) that they'd integrate instead of isolate themselves seems counterproductive in my opinion. Explain how having isolated groups of people who don't relly integrate into the prevalent society is a good thing. If people want to come here ONLY to work, fine. Get permission, work, go home. If you want to be an American, then go through the process and be proud. There's a BIG difference in these types of people.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #106 May 1, 2006 QuoteTake a look at the former soviet states... take a look at... canada... ... the basque regions... works great and isn't at all harmful in any way. Again you prove my point. None of the issues in the countries you list have anything to do with immigration...legal or otherwise.... Quote...BUT GEORGE BUSH DOES!! NOW I see! Thank you I am sorry, but that sentence doesn't make sense. Not quite sure what you are trying to say. On the otehr points we'll just ahve to agree to disagree cause the discussion certainly isn't going anywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #107 May 1, 2006 QuoteWhat? There's more legal immigrants coming into the country daily than illegal? Again, living near a border... that's either naive or dishonest. According to the Center for Immigration Studies: Between January 2000 and March 2005 7.9 million immigrants entered the US (legal and Illegal) 3.7 million were illegal immigrants, which would make it just under 50%. Big numbers but certainly not a million a week. 12.1 percent of the population are immigrants. The highest percentage in 8 decades. In 1910 the percentage was 14.7 percent. I wonder if in those days they though their culture was dying too? QuoteI don't have to Google anything... I've been there. I've seen that despite the modernization of late... there is still an identifiable culture that has remained similar for centuries. Same in the US, but the natives will tell you that you are killing their culture. You will just call it progress. Like I said, it's a bitch to be on the other side isn't it. QuoteMonetary benefits aside... it'd surely encourage people to learn the language, which is a good thing. So, what is the official language of the United States of America? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #108 May 1, 2006 I would guess English, seeing as how naturalized citizens have to pass a comprehension test. Next question?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #109 May 1, 2006 Quote>Pizza is an American invention . . . In a way that statement proves my point. Pizza is so american now that people actually think it was invented here. Someday people will think the same of tacos. [\reply] What about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #110 May 1, 2006 QuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Those things that keep rockets flying straight? (We just had Gyropolis for lunch. mmmmmm. Actually, just one of their food products, not the restaurant itself) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #111 May 1, 2006 QuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Except that the Turks were making Doner Kebab well before all that and they are extremely similar to a Gyro. So maybe it was a Turkish invention? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #112 May 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Except that the Turks were making Doner Kebab well before all that and they are extremely similar to a Gyro. So maybe it was a Turkish invention? Don't let the Greeks know that!!! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #113 May 1, 2006 I know mostly macedonians...they love it when I call them greeks... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #114 May 1, 2006 QuoteI know mostly macedonians...they love it when I call them greeks... I know a few macadamians. Frankly, I think they're all nuts. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #115 May 1, 2006 couldn't agree with you more!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #116 May 1, 2006 QuoteAgain you prove my point. None of the issues in the countries you list have anything to do with immigration...legal or otherwise.... Again... you misunderstand... or are trying to make my entire point JUST about immigration. It's about INTEGRATION as well. The points about canda et al is about divisiveness caused by 2 different languages and cultures in the same country... sure it CAN happen... but it seems pretty counterproductive. QuoteI am sorry, but that sentence doesn't make sense. Not quite sure what you are trying to say. You'll have to read my post in its entirety... not just quote by quote. It is a continuation of the sentence above the line I quoted from you. QuoteOn the otehr points we'll just ahve to agree to disagree cause the discussion certainly isn't going anywhere. Sure.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #117 May 1, 2006 I see Mr. Lamm's point, I just think he does a really lousy job of communicating it. I'd be curious to know how many generations deep Mr. Lamm is. My guess is that his family goes back at least four generations in the USA if not longer -- I cannot picture a first- or second-generation American making such a speech. QuoteI would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. What's wrong with keeping one's language and culture, provided that they learn English as well? QuoteSecond, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds. Maybe I'm misreading this, but is he saying that Hispanic and Black dropout rates are higher because their cultures are inferior? QuoteWithout the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together. I'm having trouble with this quote from B. Schwarz's article. What does it mean ethnocentrically to be American -- WASP? QuoteMy sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship Of his small list of items that can destroy America, dual citizenship is one of them? That's a laugh -- I could list 100+ other threats more significant to the well-being of this country than permitting dual citizenship. ----- Now, I do realize that what he's speaking about is the "new breed" of immigrant, and I think that this is an international phenomenon, not just unique to the USA. The breed of immigrant that goes to a country and tries to change its host culture, similar to what you have in Europe. Difference here is that the Mexican immigrants he's speaking of, though many may not learn English, work pretty hard and are not looking for a free ride. If you think it's bad here, go to France, where you cannot mention that someone is an Arab even if they are in fact Arabs. Or try Italy where the government is building mosques while giving handouts to illegal immigrants just because they're there. Or Holland where imams make their 5x daily tower calls but complain about church bells...and in the face of all that, those governments putting their tails between their legs when those illegal immigrants complain about anything. What he's talking about is the "for English, press 1, para español, marque el 2" thing, and I think he has a valid point. I don't see it as a threat as he sees it; rather, I see it as unfair to the immigrants to accommodate them this way because it will hinder their progress in our society by encouraging them NOT to learn English. There are kids in Chinatown and Spanish parts of NYC that graduate high school and barely know how to read English, thus facing a tremendous disadvantage in comparison to other students. That, to me, is where the multilingual problem he's speaking of goes way wrong. That said, this country has always been extremely resistant to non-Anglo influences, and continues to be to this day. Americans have shown very little curiosity or openness when it comes to non-English speaking immigrants arriving in this country, that's nothing new. I think our diversity is our strength, and our history has shown that immigration has benefited this country rather than undermined it. Mr. Lamm's point is that a line needs to be drawn, and I can agree with that, but he just did a weak job of getting that point across. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #118 May 1, 2006 QuoteAccording to the Center for Immigration Studies: Between January 2000 and March 2005 7.9 million immigrants entered the US (legal and Illegal) 3.7 million were illegal immigrants, which would make it just under 50%. Big numbers but certainly not a million a week. The same, not at all biased, site also says that 1 Million green cards are issued annually. That means the 4.2 million "immigrants" in your stats that aren't considered illegal... are only temporary, or are on some other type of visa. Kinda puts those numbers back into perspective for you. But hey, 3.7 million illegals in 3 months doesn't cause concern... oh no... Quote12.1 percent of the population are immigrants. The highest percentage in 8 decades. In 1910 the percentage was 14.7 percent. I wonder if in those days they though their culture was dying too? I wonder if the immigrants in 1910 wanted to be Americans... or if they wanted to make a little part of their own country here. It seems that integration was more a priority for people then. Think that proves your point? Nope, it doesn't seem like integration is AT ALL as important to illegal immigrants. If it is, why are high schools STILL teaching in spanish? Why is everything written in 5 languages? QuoteSame in the US, but the natives will tell you that you are killing their culture. You will just call it progress. Like I said, it's a bitch to be on the other side isn't it. That's your only argument?? Didn't I already have you ignore the question I asked earlier? Are you really going to use one mistake to justify making another one? Are you gonna say that it would have been wrong for the Indians to fight back? Bad analogy. QuoteSo, what is the official language of the United States of America? There isn't one. There needs to be. English is the de facto language here. Are you going to argue that too?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #119 May 1, 2006 QuoteBut hey, 3.7 million illegals in 3 months doesn't cause concern... oh no... It most certainly would....but it is 5 years and 3 months. January 2000 to March 2005 is slightly more than 3 months.... QuoteI wonder if the immigrants in 1910 wanted to be Americans... or if they wanted to make a little part of their own country here. It seems that integration was more a priority for people then really? I wonder if that is the case? Or is it seems different cause the immigrants in those days came from predominantly English speaking backgrounds? In all of this, do you think the St. Patrick's Day parade should be cancelled too? QuoteAre you really going to use one mistake to justify making another one? Nope, but you were referring back to China, where an ancient culture is coinciding with a far more modern culture. Specially when you look at teh divide between cities and rural areas. very similar to the ancient culture of natives and the modern culture of "new" immigrants. QuoteThere isn't one. There needs to be. English is the de facto language here. Are you going to argue that too? Not at all, but it is really hard to force people to learn the language of the land when you don't have one. It just happens to be the language of the majority and that seems to be changing. I would suggest urging your elected officials to start working on a bill that establishes an official language, so english speaking people can hold on to their culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #120 May 1, 2006 QuoteI see Mr. Lamm's point, I just think he does a really lousy job of communicating it..... What he's talking about is the "for English, press 1, para español, marque el 2" thing, and I think he has a valid point. I don't see it as a threat as he sees it; rather, I see it as unfair to the immigrants to accommodate them this way because it will hinder their progress in our society by encouraging them NOT to learn English. There are kids in Chinatown and Spanish parts of NYC that graduate high school and barely know how to read English, thus facing a tremendous disadvantage in comparison to other students. That, to me, is where the multilingual problem he's speaking of goes way wrong. Nice post. That last comment too. Here's a question: Do you think, then, that the multilingual is: 1 - Good intentions but bad results (Example of short term thinking) 2 - on purpose for some other, perhaps devious, or at least selfish reasons 3 - other I think the harm to immigrants is pretty obvious, so I have to think that the harm is intentionally allowed for purely political reasons. What I can't figure out is are the politicians just 'buying' the next round of votes, or are they encouraging it for a longer term exploitation, even multigenerational exploitation. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #121 May 1, 2006 >What? There's more legal immigrants coming into the country daily >than illegal? Nope, never said that. >You're right, our national anthem should be "a living, breathing >song." Nope, never said that either. >We shouldn't bother encouraging people to learn the language... >let's just translate everything for them to make it better for all of us. Do you seriously believe that most immigrants do NOT learn the language? Some study on the subject may be in order. >It wouldn't? A study in a state with the population of a large city is > conclusive that it wouldn't save us anything? BS. The initial savings > would be HUGE nationwide. Nope, sorry. The only evidence we have so far is that it wouldn't. You might imagine it would, but that's based on the same sort of emotional rhetoric that the original article was based on. But if you find a study that showed a city/state saving a lot of money by cutting out a language, then by all means, post it. It would be interesting to see how much/where they save. >But people who don't speak english can't! That's the problem. Why does it bother you that someone's grandmother can't sing the Star Spangled Banner? It's really not a problem (unless you make it your problem by becoming personally offended or something.) >We're divided by a language barrier in our own country. Nonsense. I live in one of the most 'divided' cities in the country, and there is no vast chasm of miscommunication as you suggest. >It's silly to not think it'd be a good thing that people living here > should speak english. It also doesn't imply that they should forget > their own language. It is, of course, a good thing that people here speak english, and most immigrants do. It's also a good thing to ensure that everyone, native born and foreign, can do basic math, understand how the government works, and know basic first aid. But again, I think you'd reject a federal law that required you to prove your CPR certification and currency every year, under penalty of getting kicked out of the country. We don't need federal laws to make things happen than are already happening. >Explain how having isolated groups of people who don't relly >integrate into the prevalent society is a good thing. I _am_ part of such a society. I jump on the weekends in a town that often doesn't like us. We keep to ourselves and don't make much of an effort to 'integrate' into the local society. We refer to 'locals' in the same way that people here refer to 'illegals' - they always seem to be the ones stealing gear, starting fights in the bar, and showering gravel on people in the parking lot with their cars. And they often don't like us, either. We wake them up at 7am with our noisy airplanes, and often land in their backyards without any consideration to their flocks of sheep, or their new lawns, or their gardens. And sometimes they have to deal with a drunk skydiver causing trouble on Perris streets. Quick! Pass a law to stop the disintegration of Perris society! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #122 May 1, 2006 QuoteIt most certainly would....but it is 5 years and 3 months. January 2000 to March 2005 is slightly more than 3 months.... Yeah, I misread that. My bad. But now THOSE numbers are kinda weird even... people are claiming that there are 33 million immigrants here and 9 million are illegal... so if those numbers held true from 2000 to 2005... wouldn't it be a little higher on the illegal side? I think people are playing a lot of games with numbers here and inflating/deflating them to fit their agendas. Before you shoot that up... they used the same assumptions on the CIS site to come up with their estimate of illegals. Quotereally? I wonder if that is the case? Or is it seems different cause the immigrants in those days came from predominantly English speaking backgrounds? Italians, Czechs, and Germans didn't speak a lot of english at home.... Nope, don't cancel the parades... but it is nice that they were kind enough to integrate and still keep some of their heritage. QuoteNot at all, but it is really hard to force people to learn the language of the land when you don't have one. It just happens to be the language of the majority and that seems to be changing. I would suggest urging your elected officials to start working on a bill that establishes an official language, so english speaking people can hold on to their culture. Exactly... which is why a lot of us want English made the national language... we're trying... but people keep calling us racists... strange.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #123 May 1, 2006 *sigh*.... Oookay... let 'em all in. It's the only way to progress. You win. The problems that I see don't exist. I've made them all up.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #124 May 1, 2006 >Oookay... let 'em all in. It's the only way to progress. You win. Never said that either. Either you have to make up strawmen to argue with, or you're answering someone else. Haven't figured out which yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #125 May 1, 2006 QuoteHere's a question: Do you think, then, that the multilingual is: 1 - Good intentions but bad results (Example of short term thinking) 2 - on purpose for some other, perhaps devious, or at least selfish reasons 3 - other I think the answer would be 1 -- trying to accommodate a rapidly growing population in a short-sighted way, with bad results. As far as the selfish intentions go, I think politicians on both sides will exploit the situation no matter how it turns out -- the left with the entitlement vote, the Bush admin with its stand on the guest worker issue. I doubt the politicians willfully created an environment where immigrants are stifled by their own language, but if there are politicians that somehow benefit from the situation, chances are it won't change any time soon. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rehmwa 2 #110 May 1, 2006 QuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Those things that keep rockets flying straight? (We just had Gyropolis for lunch. mmmmmm. Actually, just one of their food products, not the restaurant itself) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #111 May 1, 2006 QuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Except that the Turks were making Doner Kebab well before all that and they are extremely similar to a Gyro. So maybe it was a Turkish invention? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #112 May 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat about gyros? I believe those were invented in America and made their way to Greece... Except that the Turks were making Doner Kebab well before all that and they are extremely similar to a Gyro. So maybe it was a Turkish invention? Don't let the Greeks know that!!! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #113 May 1, 2006 I know mostly macedonians...they love it when I call them greeks... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #114 May 1, 2006 QuoteI know mostly macedonians...they love it when I call them greeks... I know a few macadamians. Frankly, I think they're all nuts. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #115 May 1, 2006 couldn't agree with you more!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #116 May 1, 2006 QuoteAgain you prove my point. None of the issues in the countries you list have anything to do with immigration...legal or otherwise.... Again... you misunderstand... or are trying to make my entire point JUST about immigration. It's about INTEGRATION as well. The points about canda et al is about divisiveness caused by 2 different languages and cultures in the same country... sure it CAN happen... but it seems pretty counterproductive. QuoteI am sorry, but that sentence doesn't make sense. Not quite sure what you are trying to say. You'll have to read my post in its entirety... not just quote by quote. It is a continuation of the sentence above the line I quoted from you. QuoteOn the otehr points we'll just ahve to agree to disagree cause the discussion certainly isn't going anywhere. Sure.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #117 May 1, 2006 I see Mr. Lamm's point, I just think he does a really lousy job of communicating it. I'd be curious to know how many generations deep Mr. Lamm is. My guess is that his family goes back at least four generations in the USA if not longer -- I cannot picture a first- or second-generation American making such a speech. QuoteI would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. What's wrong with keeping one's language and culture, provided that they learn English as well? QuoteSecond, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds. Maybe I'm misreading this, but is he saying that Hispanic and Black dropout rates are higher because their cultures are inferior? QuoteWithout the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together. I'm having trouble with this quote from B. Schwarz's article. What does it mean ethnocentrically to be American -- WASP? QuoteMy sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship Of his small list of items that can destroy America, dual citizenship is one of them? That's a laugh -- I could list 100+ other threats more significant to the well-being of this country than permitting dual citizenship. ----- Now, I do realize that what he's speaking about is the "new breed" of immigrant, and I think that this is an international phenomenon, not just unique to the USA. The breed of immigrant that goes to a country and tries to change its host culture, similar to what you have in Europe. Difference here is that the Mexican immigrants he's speaking of, though many may not learn English, work pretty hard and are not looking for a free ride. If you think it's bad here, go to France, where you cannot mention that someone is an Arab even if they are in fact Arabs. Or try Italy where the government is building mosques while giving handouts to illegal immigrants just because they're there. Or Holland where imams make their 5x daily tower calls but complain about church bells...and in the face of all that, those governments putting their tails between their legs when those illegal immigrants complain about anything. What he's talking about is the "for English, press 1, para español, marque el 2" thing, and I think he has a valid point. I don't see it as a threat as he sees it; rather, I see it as unfair to the immigrants to accommodate them this way because it will hinder their progress in our society by encouraging them NOT to learn English. There are kids in Chinatown and Spanish parts of NYC that graduate high school and barely know how to read English, thus facing a tremendous disadvantage in comparison to other students. That, to me, is where the multilingual problem he's speaking of goes way wrong. That said, this country has always been extremely resistant to non-Anglo influences, and continues to be to this day. Americans have shown very little curiosity or openness when it comes to non-English speaking immigrants arriving in this country, that's nothing new. I think our diversity is our strength, and our history has shown that immigration has benefited this country rather than undermined it. Mr. Lamm's point is that a line needs to be drawn, and I can agree with that, but he just did a weak job of getting that point across. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #118 May 1, 2006 QuoteAccording to the Center for Immigration Studies: Between January 2000 and March 2005 7.9 million immigrants entered the US (legal and Illegal) 3.7 million were illegal immigrants, which would make it just under 50%. Big numbers but certainly not a million a week. The same, not at all biased, site also says that 1 Million green cards are issued annually. That means the 4.2 million "immigrants" in your stats that aren't considered illegal... are only temporary, or are on some other type of visa. Kinda puts those numbers back into perspective for you. But hey, 3.7 million illegals in 3 months doesn't cause concern... oh no... Quote12.1 percent of the population are immigrants. The highest percentage in 8 decades. In 1910 the percentage was 14.7 percent. I wonder if in those days they though their culture was dying too? I wonder if the immigrants in 1910 wanted to be Americans... or if they wanted to make a little part of their own country here. It seems that integration was more a priority for people then. Think that proves your point? Nope, it doesn't seem like integration is AT ALL as important to illegal immigrants. If it is, why are high schools STILL teaching in spanish? Why is everything written in 5 languages? QuoteSame in the US, but the natives will tell you that you are killing their culture. You will just call it progress. Like I said, it's a bitch to be on the other side isn't it. That's your only argument?? Didn't I already have you ignore the question I asked earlier? Are you really going to use one mistake to justify making another one? Are you gonna say that it would have been wrong for the Indians to fight back? Bad analogy. QuoteSo, what is the official language of the United States of America? There isn't one. There needs to be. English is the de facto language here. Are you going to argue that too?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #119 May 1, 2006 QuoteBut hey, 3.7 million illegals in 3 months doesn't cause concern... oh no... It most certainly would....but it is 5 years and 3 months. January 2000 to March 2005 is slightly more than 3 months.... QuoteI wonder if the immigrants in 1910 wanted to be Americans... or if they wanted to make a little part of their own country here. It seems that integration was more a priority for people then really? I wonder if that is the case? Or is it seems different cause the immigrants in those days came from predominantly English speaking backgrounds? In all of this, do you think the St. Patrick's Day parade should be cancelled too? QuoteAre you really going to use one mistake to justify making another one? Nope, but you were referring back to China, where an ancient culture is coinciding with a far more modern culture. Specially when you look at teh divide between cities and rural areas. very similar to the ancient culture of natives and the modern culture of "new" immigrants. QuoteThere isn't one. There needs to be. English is the de facto language here. Are you going to argue that too? Not at all, but it is really hard to force people to learn the language of the land when you don't have one. It just happens to be the language of the majority and that seems to be changing. I would suggest urging your elected officials to start working on a bill that establishes an official language, so english speaking people can hold on to their culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #120 May 1, 2006 QuoteI see Mr. Lamm's point, I just think he does a really lousy job of communicating it..... What he's talking about is the "for English, press 1, para español, marque el 2" thing, and I think he has a valid point. I don't see it as a threat as he sees it; rather, I see it as unfair to the immigrants to accommodate them this way because it will hinder their progress in our society by encouraging them NOT to learn English. There are kids in Chinatown and Spanish parts of NYC that graduate high school and barely know how to read English, thus facing a tremendous disadvantage in comparison to other students. That, to me, is where the multilingual problem he's speaking of goes way wrong. Nice post. That last comment too. Here's a question: Do you think, then, that the multilingual is: 1 - Good intentions but bad results (Example of short term thinking) 2 - on purpose for some other, perhaps devious, or at least selfish reasons 3 - other I think the harm to immigrants is pretty obvious, so I have to think that the harm is intentionally allowed for purely political reasons. What I can't figure out is are the politicians just 'buying' the next round of votes, or are they encouraging it for a longer term exploitation, even multigenerational exploitation. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #121 May 1, 2006 >What? There's more legal immigrants coming into the country daily >than illegal? Nope, never said that. >You're right, our national anthem should be "a living, breathing >song." Nope, never said that either. >We shouldn't bother encouraging people to learn the language... >let's just translate everything for them to make it better for all of us. Do you seriously believe that most immigrants do NOT learn the language? Some study on the subject may be in order. >It wouldn't? A study in a state with the population of a large city is > conclusive that it wouldn't save us anything? BS. The initial savings > would be HUGE nationwide. Nope, sorry. The only evidence we have so far is that it wouldn't. You might imagine it would, but that's based on the same sort of emotional rhetoric that the original article was based on. But if you find a study that showed a city/state saving a lot of money by cutting out a language, then by all means, post it. It would be interesting to see how much/where they save. >But people who don't speak english can't! That's the problem. Why does it bother you that someone's grandmother can't sing the Star Spangled Banner? It's really not a problem (unless you make it your problem by becoming personally offended or something.) >We're divided by a language barrier in our own country. Nonsense. I live in one of the most 'divided' cities in the country, and there is no vast chasm of miscommunication as you suggest. >It's silly to not think it'd be a good thing that people living here > should speak english. It also doesn't imply that they should forget > their own language. It is, of course, a good thing that people here speak english, and most immigrants do. It's also a good thing to ensure that everyone, native born and foreign, can do basic math, understand how the government works, and know basic first aid. But again, I think you'd reject a federal law that required you to prove your CPR certification and currency every year, under penalty of getting kicked out of the country. We don't need federal laws to make things happen than are already happening. >Explain how having isolated groups of people who don't relly >integrate into the prevalent society is a good thing. I _am_ part of such a society. I jump on the weekends in a town that often doesn't like us. We keep to ourselves and don't make much of an effort to 'integrate' into the local society. We refer to 'locals' in the same way that people here refer to 'illegals' - they always seem to be the ones stealing gear, starting fights in the bar, and showering gravel on people in the parking lot with their cars. And they often don't like us, either. We wake them up at 7am with our noisy airplanes, and often land in their backyards without any consideration to their flocks of sheep, or their new lawns, or their gardens. And sometimes they have to deal with a drunk skydiver causing trouble on Perris streets. Quick! Pass a law to stop the disintegration of Perris society! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #122 May 1, 2006 QuoteIt most certainly would....but it is 5 years and 3 months. January 2000 to March 2005 is slightly more than 3 months.... Yeah, I misread that. My bad. But now THOSE numbers are kinda weird even... people are claiming that there are 33 million immigrants here and 9 million are illegal... so if those numbers held true from 2000 to 2005... wouldn't it be a little higher on the illegal side? I think people are playing a lot of games with numbers here and inflating/deflating them to fit their agendas. Before you shoot that up... they used the same assumptions on the CIS site to come up with their estimate of illegals. Quotereally? I wonder if that is the case? Or is it seems different cause the immigrants in those days came from predominantly English speaking backgrounds? Italians, Czechs, and Germans didn't speak a lot of english at home.... Nope, don't cancel the parades... but it is nice that they were kind enough to integrate and still keep some of their heritage. QuoteNot at all, but it is really hard to force people to learn the language of the land when you don't have one. It just happens to be the language of the majority and that seems to be changing. I would suggest urging your elected officials to start working on a bill that establishes an official language, so english speaking people can hold on to their culture. Exactly... which is why a lot of us want English made the national language... we're trying... but people keep calling us racists... strange.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #123 May 1, 2006 *sigh*.... Oookay... let 'em all in. It's the only way to progress. You win. The problems that I see don't exist. I've made them all up.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #124 May 1, 2006 >Oookay... let 'em all in. It's the only way to progress. You win. Never said that either. Either you have to make up strawmen to argue with, or you're answering someone else. Haven't figured out which yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #125 May 1, 2006 QuoteHere's a question: Do you think, then, that the multilingual is: 1 - Good intentions but bad results (Example of short term thinking) 2 - on purpose for some other, perhaps devious, or at least selfish reasons 3 - other I think the answer would be 1 -- trying to accommodate a rapidly growing population in a short-sighted way, with bad results. As far as the selfish intentions go, I think politicians on both sides will exploit the situation no matter how it turns out -- the left with the entitlement vote, the Bush admin with its stand on the guest worker issue. I doubt the politicians willfully created an environment where immigrants are stifled by their own language, but if there are politicians that somehow benefit from the situation, chances are it won't change any time soon. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
