Dick Lamm's "Plan to Destroy America."

[Richards 0]

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Everyone's afraid that they'll be labeled a xenophobe or a racist.

Playing the race card is the quickest way of squelching any critical debate. When you present a logical argument that starts outweighing the rhetoric of multiculturalists or people who promote unsustainable immigration rates, then they can always deploy that as a debate ender when they feel they are losing.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Sure it's a joke... in that it is poking fun at the fact that the author doesn't REALLY want to destroy the US, but wants to point out some really good ways to do it that are ALREADY happening.

destroy or change? Same thing experiences by different people. Some Iraqis think their country has been destroyed. Most Americans think it is just regime change.

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What would French culture be? Berets, cheese, and wine?

Writing, architecture, thinkers, inventors, art. In my very humble opinion America in it's current state isn't old enough to start talking about any culture of any significance. There was a much older culture in place, but our ancestors destroyed it...pretty interesting considering the rant of some on here.

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I would definitely hate to see Chinatown go away, or Little Saigon, or Littly Italy. But I WOULD like to see that besides bringing some culture here to give themselves and us a taste of "home", that they integrated into American society.

Why, your ancestors (and mine) didn't. What makes us so fucking special that we didn't have to, but those coming after us do.

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Amazingly, if we Americans DON'T have a culture... why is it so easy to tell who's American when you travel?

Because being obnoxious doesn't necessarily make a culture.

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No, but it does seem to be quite honest and in most cases accurate. Does it bother people that someone said it because it isn't PC?

No it doesn't bother me that it isn't PC. It bothers me cause it isn't honest nor accurate.

[jlmiracle 7]

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Amazingly, if we Americans DON'T have a culture... why is it so easy to tell who's American when you travel?

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Because being obnoxious doesn't necessarily make a culture.

Not all Americans are obnoxious, that like saying all Canadians are stupid drunks eh.

You want the immigrants to bad - you take, you pay for them, you prevent them from the crimes they commit (yes they killed my cousin!). We don't owe them anything. If they want to work there way stay there legally then then should and not just be able to walk across the border with their hands out.!

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Richards 0]

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....that like saying all Canadians are stupid drunks eh.

HAY!!!! We are stoopid drunks damn you. And don't you ever forget that!!!

Now wher in da fuk did i put my beer eh???

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Not all Americans are obnoxious, that like saying all Canadians are stupid drunks eh.

I agree....but ask around in Europe why American tourists stand out....

There are also a lot of American toursist that don't stand out, I agree. but Trent was specifically talking about those that do.

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You want the immigrants to bad - you take, you pay for them, you prevent them from the crimes they commit (yes they killed my cousin!). We don't owe them anything. If they want to work there way stay there legally then then should and not just be able to walk across the border with their hands out.!

I have this feeling you are talking about illegal immigrants. There is also such a thing as legal migration.

[Trent 0]

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I agree....but ask around in Europe why American tourists stand out....

There are also a lot of American toursist that don't stand out, I agree. but Trent was specifically talking about those that do.

Well, not to skip over your last post... I'll get that later...

BUT, you're absolutely wrong about why Americans stick out. I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Hell, I speak French even... but everyone always knew I was American. They could even point me out in Denmark. Why? Not because I was the "stereotypical" obnoxious tourist... but because of my mannerisms, my clothes, my hat... stuff like that. Everywhere I've been, I've seen JUST as many, if not more, irritating and obnoxious European and Asian tourists.

Oh, hello again!

[rehmwa 2]

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Everywhere I've been, I've seen JUST as many, if not more, irritating and obnoxious European and Asian tourists.

Every day, I drive along with about 200 minivans. I hardly notice because they are minding their own business and don't cause much trouble on the road.

Two days ago, I see one minivan screaming down the road dodging in and out. Finally, she cut across from the right lane through another, into the left turn lane, almost hitting three cars. Then she skipped over the center curb (bumpity bumpity) into the opposite direction lane and shot around the left hand turn - running the red light and almost hitting the cross traffic which had just started to enter the intersection.

Yeah - all minivans drivers are reckless nuts. Every single one of them.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trent 0]

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destroy or change? Same thing experiences by different people. Some Iraqis think their country has been destroyed. Most Americans think it is just regime change.

Change would be the PC euphemism for destroying a culture as we know (or maybe once knew) it. You could play semantic games like that endlessly. The Roman empire also "changed" there at the end, didn't it? France will probably "change" too, once it becomes dominated by people who don't share its culture and language.

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In my very humble opinion America in it's current state isn't old enough to start talking about any culture of any significance. There was a much older culture in place, but our ancestors destroyed it...pretty interesting considering the rant of some on here.

It is pretty popular to say that America doesn't/didn't /won't have a real culture. But in all honesty, it's there. But it's okay to say it doesn't exist if it helps the arguments. It's also funny how you want to use a mistake of past generations to justify a continuing pattern of that behavior.

I guess in the fatalistic sense of things... we could say that all cultures die eventually. It's unfortunate that the US couldn't make it much more than 250 years without starting to destroy itself through the "good intentions" of the PC multi-culturalist crowd.

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Why, your ancestors (and mine) didn't. What makes us so fucking special that we didn't have to, but those coming after us do.

Don't assume so much. My ancestors came from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Scotland, and Syria. They DID integrate. Sure... they kept some of their culture... (ever drink Shiner Bock?)... but they didn't imbue their children with a sense of entitlement to have signs, ballots, and all government phone calls in Czech... did they? Nope. They were PROUD to come here and become Americans. So maybe you can blame SOMEONE'S ancestors for not adopting Indian culture... but mine came here and adopted the culture of the place when they arrived.

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Because being obnoxious doesn't necessarily make a culture.

See previous post.

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No it doesn't bother me that it isn't PC. It bothers me cause it isn't honest nor accurate.

It's the fact that people don't think that it's accurate that only further helps it along. In fact... it kinda addresses that in the speech itself. I guess only us xenophobic racists can see that it IS a good way to divide and conquer a country... not just ours.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Yeah - all minivans drivers are reckless nuts. Every single one of them.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying... and I alluded to that in there too. But the main point is that there ARE other ways to identify Americans abroad because of our cultural "stuff". Dress, mannerisms, things like that.

Of course, I had to expect the "stereotype" response since it's so cool to think we're all obnoxious pigs. I posit that we're no more obnoxious than any other group of tourists out there. Ever seen a group of pissed of Frenchies? Wow.

Oh, hello again!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Don't assume so much. My ancestors came from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Scotland, and Syria. They DID integrate. Sure... they kept some of their culture... (ever drink Shiner Bock?)... but they didn't imbue their children with a sense of entitlement to have signs, ballots, and all government phone calls in Czech... did they? Nope. They were PROUD to come here and become Americans. So maybe you can blame SOMEONE'S ancestors for not adopting Indian culture... but mine came here and adopted the culture of the place when they arrived.

Funny, you counter your own argument multiple times in this one paragraph.

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Don't assume so much. My ancestors came from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Scotland, and Syria. They DID integrate. Sure... they kept some of their culture... (ever drink Shiner Bock?)...

So, then what is a new immigrant (and I am talking about legal immigration here) allowed to keep? What part of their culcture are they allowed to hang onto and who decides? I never hear much ranting and raving about Italians who never really learn to speak english...or Irish who don't lose their accents.

Secondly, it is the combination of all those cultures that make current american or canadian culture. So why should that be stopped now?

Thirdly, early immigrants (who technically would have been illegal immigrants) came in, took the land from the Indians (mainly cause they outnumbered them in the end) and started building their own culture. Turn around is a bitch isn't it....better start learning spanish or chinese.

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Change would be the PC euphemism for destroying a culture as we know (or maybe once knew) it.

No, culture in its essence is something that continually changes, cause it is shaped by time. Look at the culture in the southern states as a prime example. Did it change or was it destroyed? Was it a good thing or a bad thing?

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It is pretty popular to say that America doesn't/didn't /won't have a real culture. But in all honesty, it's there. But it's okay to say it doesn't exist if it helps the arguments.

I didn't say that America doesn't have a culture. Read it again.

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It's the fact that people don't think that it's accurate that only further helps it along. In fact... it kinda addresses that in the speech itself. I guess only us xenophobic racists can see that it IS a good way to divide and conquer a country... not just ours.

Who is doing the dividing and conquering? Who is the invading force?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Yeah, I hear what you're saying... and I alluded to that in there too. But the main point is that there ARE other ways to identify Americans abroad because of our cultural "stuff". Dress, mannerisms, things like that.

Yes, the tourist who doesn't take his hat off when going into a church. Who assumes everybody just speaks english (most do, but effort is usually appreciated), wears running shoes to a high end restaurant. You are right, those are american mannerism. The part you aren't realizing is that some of those mannerisms are considered very obnoxious to the cultures being visited.

In my 24 years living in europe, I have to say that american tourists weren't known for what they were wearing.

(standard disclaimer since many of you are so touchy....yes I know not all americans and I know europeans can be obnoxious too. Yes I understand that at its core this is a perception issue and not necesarily an actual reality)

[kelpdiver 2]

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I guess in the fatalistic sense of things... we could say that all cultures die eventually. It's unfortunate that the US couldn't make it much more than 250 years without starting to destroy itself through the "good intentions" of the PC multi-culturalist crowd.

The Civil War was 145 years ago. Those bastard PC multiculturalists like Lincoln tried to destroy America, seemed to have recovered.

[billvon 3,120]

>Change would be the PC euphemism for destroying a culture as we
>know (or maybe once knew) it. You could play semantic games like
>that endlessly.

Then the US culture has been destroyed many times over. It was destroyed when slaves were freed. It was destroyed when women got the vote. It was destroyed when the Irish came over by the millions. It was destroyed when alcohol was banned, then re-destroyed when it was made legal again.

Seems to be in pretty good shape for a culture that's been destroyed dozens of times.

>The Roman empire also "changed" there at the end, didn't it?

America changed bigtime in 1776. Do you mourn that change? It changed again in 1860. You want to go back to the way things were before?

Cultures that stop changing die. The only cultures that don't change are the ones we dig up in archaeological sites; they've discovered a way to stay inert. One of the strengths of our culture is that it is able to absorb change and _not_ fall apart, which it has done countless times.

>It is pretty popular to say that America doesn't/didn't /won't have a
>real culture. But in all honesty, it's there.

It's as real as any other culture; it's just newer and more resilient.

>Don't assume so much. My ancestors came from Czechoslovakia,
> Germany, Scotland, and Syria. They DID integrate. Sure... they
>kept some of their culture... (ever drink Shiner Bock?)... but they didn't
> imbue their children with a sense of entitlement to have signs, ballots, >and all government phone calls in Czech...

Just as the majority of today's immigrants (illegal or otherwise) do not want those things.

When my ancestors came over, they were labeled as lazy drunks. And the fine 'real' citizens of the US could prove it! Just go down to Clenaghan's and there were a dozen irish drunks sitting at the bar at 1pm on a Tuesday. Or go to a St. Patrick's Day parade - hundreds, if not thousands, of people drinking heavily on a weekday. Case closed.

And today, it's easy to see the same things. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people carrying signs and making a big stink, wanting handouts, bilingual everything and instant citizenship. They must therefore represent all mexican immigrants. Case closed.

Fortunately, the people back at the turn of the century had enough foresight to realize that a bunch of drunks did not define the Irish immigrants. Hopefully people today will be able to understand the same sort of thing about Mexican immigrants.

>It's the fact that people don't think that it's accurate that only further
> helps it along. In fact... it kinda addresses that in the speech itself.

Ah, the old "if you disagree, you are really proving my point!" A favorite here on SC.

Now, for a final question - do you disagree with ME? (yes, this is a trick question)

[Trent 0]

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Funny, you counter your own argument multiple times in this one paragraph.

You've done a poor job of illustrating that.

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So, then what is a new immigrant (and I am talking about legal immigration here) allowed to keep? What part of their culcture are they allowed to hang onto and who decides?

Do you really want a checklist, or are you just trying to say that it's absurd to expect anyone to integrate and at the same time not forget where they came from? If you can't see a difference between immigrants who arrive, embrace their new country, learn the language, and get to work and immigrants who immediately melt into their own community here and never bother to learn the language, or even follow the rules... then I can't help you.

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I never hear much ranting and raving about Italians who never really learn to speak english...or Irish who don't lose their accents.

IMAGINE THAT!! They came over at a time when we didn't HAVE to teach their schools in their native tongues. A time when they didn't get everything in english AND in Italian. Nope... they pretty much had to learn to make it. I have 2 friends who are teachers for classes that are SPANISH only. That'll sure teach em!

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Secondly, it is the combination of all those cultures that make current american or canadian culture. So why should that be stopped now?

Thirdly, early immigrants (who technically would have been illegal immigrants) came in, took the land from the Indians (mainly cause they outnumbered them in the end) and started building their own culture. Turn around is a bitch isn't it....better start learning spanish or chinese.

Yes, we should just accept that there really ARE no borders in the world and that anarchy will reign supreme no matter what we do. You know... if that's the way it works naturally... what's up with those Chinese... oh, and pretty much any other culture that's been around for a long long time? They must be really dying out fast.

If you're okay with the US becoming a 3rd world shithole... just say so. We'll just open up the border until the economic balance between us and Mexico averages us down as much as possible. You're right... it IS crazy for people to want to avoid that. We're clearly racists.

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I didn't say that America doesn't have a culture. Read it again.

OH... okay... you said "America in it's current state isn't old enough to start talking about any culture of any significance." THAT's totally different. My comment stands. It's a cop out and BS to say that.

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Who is doing the dividing and conquering? Who is the invading force?

WE are doing the dividing and conquering. The invading force is the "we are the world" crowd who seem to forget that countries are/were established as groups of people with a common culture and language. But hey, we're PC enough to make the tower of Babel work.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Yes, the tourist who doesn't take his hat off when going into a church. Who assumes everybody just speaks english (most do, but effort is usually appreciated), wears running shoes to a high end restaurant. You are right, those are american mannerism. The part you aren't realizing is that some of those mannerisms are considered very obnoxious to the cultures being visited.

Well, that just goes to show your bias here. "Mannerisms" encompass way more than your offensive behavior list, but if that is how you choose to see it... not much we can do about it. Opinions like this are part of the reason that many Americans don't give a fuck what the world thinks. We're damned no matter what we do in some peoples' eyes.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Then the US culture has been destroyed many times over. It was destroyed when slaves were freed. It was destroyed when women got the vote. It was destroyed when the Irish came over by the millions. It was destroyed when alcohol was banned, then re-destroyed when it was made legal again.

So you're in the crowd that thinks that there is no real, enduring culture? Did the whole culture change when slaves were freed? Or did people just move along and act the same just without slaves? I mean, if you want to say each event changes the culture... then we could go nuts with that subject. I still think there IS a culture that endures... sure it's changed... but more with the times than with any single event. But I know you'll find a way to slam the idea that an American culture does exist and IS put in jeopardy when the melting pot becomes a mixing bowl... guess we'll just have to roll with the punches until all those filthy countries that have distinct cultures are overrun by "the world" so we can have our true one-world culture.

Just seems strange that people who "embrace cultural diversity" don't care that their endgame really is the lack of any diversity whatsoever.
But that's longterm stuff... so it isn't important.

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Cultures that stop changing die. The only cultures that don't change are the ones we dig up in archaeological sites; they've discovered a way to stay inert. One of the strengths of our culture is that it is able to absorb change and _not_ fall apart, which it has done countless times.

Really? I bet some S.American indian tribes would prove you wrong. Seems that when they DO start to change they die out. Weird.

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And today, it's easy to see the same things. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people carrying signs and making a big stink, wanting handouts, bilingual everything and instant citizenship. They must therefore represent all mexican immigrants. Case closed.

Then why the outrage at making an official language for the US? Why all the pissing and moaning over "1836"? Why translate the "Star Spangled Banner" into spanish? Why teach school in spanish?

It's funny that you guys whine about how insensitive we are and that all these nice immigrants (illegal or legal) who decide that WE should adapt to them and make no efforts to integrate in the slightest bit deserve everything catered to them. You know who REALLY REALLY feels passionately about it... more than any US born person I know?? THE IMMMIGRANTS. Yeah, that's right, the one's that have come here, sacrificed everything, worked hard to stay and DID integrate to make a better life for themselves and their families. They are the FIRST to say that all this catering to immigrants with the language and culturally sensitive crap should be done away with.

It's US that are fucking things up by being so afraid to make people DO something to become an American. Learn the language, pay your taxes, apply for residency, all that RIDICULOUS stuff.

Here's a quote: "I didn't come to the US to make Houston like Caracas, I came to be a part of Houston and the US."

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Ah, the old "if you disagree, you are really proving my point!" A favorite here on SC.

Dang. You got me. I got Mr. Lamm to write that part into his article just to play the "disagree and you prove my point" card.

I disagree that my intention was what you assumed. Do you disagree that there are many problems stemming from immigration and people who come here to send money out, pay no taxes, and feel no attachment to the US? That's not a trick question. If you think we're doing just fine, we'll then we must be!

Edit: I'm out for the weekend... I'll respond to the forthcoming "love it or leave it" messages next week!

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,120]

>So you're in the crowd that thinks that there is no real, enduring
>culture?

No, sorry, that was sarcasm, which is a literary device. Of course we have a culture, and of course it was not destroyed when millions of Irish came over. It changed, certainly, but cultures that do not change die.

>I still think there IS a culture that endures... sure it's changed... but
> more with the times than with any single event. But I know you'll find
>a way to slam the idea that an American culture does exist and IS put
>in jeopardy when the melting pot becomes a mixing bowl...

??? What? I'm just slamming the idea that Irish, African, Mexican etc immigrants 'destroy our culture.' Far from it - they make it stronger.

>Then why the outrage at making an official language for the US?
>Why all the pissing and moaning over "1836"? Why translate the "Star
>Spangled Banner" into spanish? Why teach school in spanish?

The Star Spangled Banner HAS been translated into Spanish (and most other languages.) Our culture didn't collapse. Heck, consider it a compliment that other countries want to hear it in words that they better understand! Surely you'd be more miffed if they didn't want to hear it at all.

We've had no official language for 200 years, and have done fine even though most of our society has come from other countries. The sky is really not about to fall. We've done fine in the past, when a greater percentage of our population were immigrants. We'll do fine today as well.

>It's funny that you guys whine about how insensitive we are and that
>all these nice immigrants (illegal or legal) who decide that WE should
>adapt to them . . . .

We DID adapt to them, and they to us. That's why pizza is now considered an american food.

>and make no efforts to integrate in the slightest bit deserve everything catered to them.

I think you're talking about a small percentage of lazy people. I think you'd find just as many of them in a trailer park in Georgia as in a hispanic slum in LA. Laziness and lack of desire to work is not tied to any nationality or immigration status.

>You know who REALLY REALLY feels passionately about it... more than
> any US born person I know?? THE IMMMIGRANTS. Yeah, that's right,
>the one's that have come here, sacrificed everything, worked hard to
>stay and DID integrate to make a better life for themselves and their
>families. They are the FIRST to say that all this catering to immigrants
>with the language and culturally sensitive crap should be done away
>with.

?? Again, what? I don't think we need to be any more or less sensitive than we're being now. They came here because America was not a country of insular bigots who want their culture untouched by filthy foreigners, and it was also not a country of namby-pamby wimps with no culture who would do whatever they said. It was a country that gave them the opportunity to come here and make a better life for themselves. And these people ARE learning english, and paying taxes, and raising their children to be americans. In the past, they have made america what it is now. The immigrants coming here today will be part of the future of this country.

>I disagree that my intention was what you assumed. Do you disagree
>that there are many problems stemming from immigration and people
> who come here to send money out, pay no taxes, and feel no
>attachment to the US?

No, it _is_ a problem. Just as there is a problem with white male criminals from Georgia, or with white male wife-beaters on welfare. Would be silly to generalize that as a problem with all white males.

[warpedskydiver 0]

hey Bill?, Pizza is an American invention

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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hey Bill?, Pizza is an American invention

What a joke....


For one thing, the definitions of pizza are many and varied. Putting stuff on flat bread as a meal certainly goes back as far as ancient Rome. The word "pizza" itself appears just before 1000 AD, in the area between Naples and Rome, meaning "pie."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Opinions like this are part of the reason that many Americans don't give a fuck what the world thinks.

And some people believe it's the other way around. Just turns into a chicken and egg argument.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Do you really want a checklist, or are you just trying to say that it's absurd to expect anyone to integrate and at the same time not forget where they came from? If you can't see a difference between immigrants who arrive, embrace their new country, learn the language, and get to work and immigrants who immediately melt into their own community here and never bother to learn the language, or even follow the rules... then I can't help you.

How about the immigrants who enter their own communities, work hard and never learn the language? How do they fit in? Life isn't black and white....

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IMAGINE THAT!! They came over at a time when we didn't HAVE to teach their schools in their native tongues. A time when they didn't get everything in english AND in Italian. Nope... they pretty much had to learn to make it. I have 2 friends who are teachers for classes that are SPANISH only. That'll sure teach em!

Public school or private school? If it is public school, sounds like your friends are either part of the problem...or profitting from the problem. Neither should be a good thing in your book....

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If you're okay with the US becoming a 3rd world shithole...

Immigrants have nothing to do with that....though they are easy to blame, specially those who clearly stand out due to a different skin tone. If you are worried about becoming a 3rd world shithole, you should start with your own administration. They are squandering money all over the world killing people...sadly enough there is no money left to care for the people in your own country....that's how you become a shithole.....

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OH... okay... you said "America in it's current state isn't old enough to start talking about any culture of any significance." THAT's totally different.

yes it is different....I am sorry that nuance is lost on you, but then it is evident from your other arguments in this thread.

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WE are doing the dividing and conquering. The invading force is the "we are the world" crowd who seem to forget that countries are/were established as groups of people with a common culture and language.

Bullshit...just go take a look at Switzerland, or Belgium.

[skydyvr 0]

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Immigrants have nothing to do with that....though they are easy to blame, specially those who clearly stand out due to a different skin tone.

Thanks for revealing how your mind works -- but not everyone thinks any particular race "stands out" due to "skin tone".

. . =(_8^(1)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Thanks for revealing how your mind works -- but not everyone thinks any particular race "stands out" due to "skin tone".

must be my imagination....but I only hear talk of illegal mexican immigrants....I know there are quite a few illegal western europeans in the US...and a fair amount of illegal canadians in the US...I don't hear much complaining about them....but then they are quite a bit harder to pick out of a crowd.

[skydyvr 0]

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must be my imagination....but I only hear talk of illegal mexican immigrants....I know there are quite a few illegal western europeans in the US...and a fair amount of illegal canadians in the US...I don't hear much complaining about them....but then they are quite a bit harder to pick out of a crowd.

Nice bullshit strawman there -- over 90% of illegal immigration is from Mexico and the Latin American countires below it, so what are we supposed to be taking about?

And again, just because some races "stand out" due to "skin tone" in YOUR mind doesn't mean we all think the same way.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,120]

>Pizza is an American invention . . .

In a way that statement proves my point. Pizza is so american now that people actually think it was invented here. Someday people will think the same of tacos.

---------------------------
BTW very brief history of pizza -

First pizzeria was "Antica Pizzeria Port'Alba" which opened in 1830 and is still in business today at Via Port'Alba 18 in Naples. Gennaro Lombardi opened the first U.S. pizzeria in 1895 in New York City.