Shotgun 1 #76 April 27, 2006 Quote>Good argument, except that smoking in a bar is a consumer driven want . . . as is a cheap skydive. Consumers do not want to pay lots of money, so a DZO who skimps on aircraft maintenance, reserve repacks, AADs and instructor ratings to give customers a cheaper tandem - is giving them exactly what they ask for. So let them have what they want, assuming that they are adults and capable of making informed decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #77 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotei'm all for a ban on public farting I disagree, thee should be a farting section. There are several. One of them is called Twin Otter So it was you? ..... Ewwwwwwwwwww. Worse is a 172 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #78 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuote With this logic, shouldn't we be able to masturbate in public? I mean, we are allowed to have bad habits, right? Oh, it's offensive? Well at least it won't kill or make ill anyone. Are you sure you understand what "logic" is? If you're going to equate pubic indecency with something that a quarter of the population does in public 10 times a day, I'm wonder. You're committing a common logical fallacy to argue your case - the strawman. Non smokers are acting fairly in wanted a restaurant section that is truly non smoking. Likewise, it would be obnoxious for a smoker to stand on the upwind side of a bus stop and light up. But do non smokers have a right never to experience smoke anywhere anytime? Not a chance. Not when car exhaust dominates the streets. QuoteI mean, we are allowed to have bad habits, right? The point I was making is that you are diminishing smoking to just a bad habit. It's not just a bad habit, like chewing tobacco, where only the fool sucking on it is physically affected. Don't grandstand, no falacy here, just an abstract comparison. QuoteBut do non smokers have a right never to experience smoke anywhere anytime? Not a chance. Not when car exhaust dominates the streets. The ultimate abstract representation: comparing a mode of transportation to an addiction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #79 April 27, 2006 QuoteHello, my name is Jason and I'm a smoker. You haters crack me up and remind of the pilots out there that hate skydivers because "its stupid to jump out of a perfectly good airplane." I personally won't smoke in a bar, eating establishment or even a smoke shop (place that sells tobacco etc. for those of you who don't smoke) regardless of the law. I don't mind going outside. Guess you could say I'm "outdoorsy"...heh. Of course I'm one of those very few courteous smokers out there. edited to add: oh yeah....when in vegas a few months ago, I smoked up a storm but only when in the casino. That place is a smokers paradise. Damn I love that city! QuoteHello, my name is Jason and I'm a smoker. You haters crack me up and remind of the pilots out there that hate skydivers because "its stupid to jump out of a perfectly good airplane." Me jumping out of an acft over farmland isn't going to kill you or anyone - you smkoing near me will slowly poison me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #80 April 27, 2006 QuoteThe ultimate abstract representation: comparing a mode of transportation to an addiction. Nope....he's comparing relative pollution levels between 2nd hand smoke and (much more prevalent) auto exhaust...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #81 April 27, 2006 QuoteNope....he's comparing relative pollution levels between 2nd hand smoke and (much more prevalent) auto exhaust... Ok.. then I support a Catalytic Converter on his cigarrettes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #82 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteNope....he's comparing relative pollution levels between 2nd hand smoke and (much more prevalent) auto exhaust... Ok.. then I support a Catalytic Converter on his cigarrettes. I wouldn't think there's that much NO from a cigarette... but I could be wrong... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #83 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt must be terrible to have to live in such fear... Well since I did not vote for the Shrub.. I guess I am not in fear....but a WHOLE lot of people certainly voted for him out of fear...You can fool some of the people some of the time..... or you can fool ... the fools far more easily. "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/foolbush.mov Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #84 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe ultimate abstract representation: comparing a mode of transportation to an addiction. Nope....he's comparing relative pollution levels between 2nd hand smoke and (much more prevalent) auto exhaust... From a necessecity point of view, which is what I was refering to, it is abstract. If we never had cigs again, the world would be a better place. If we never used vehicles again, we would have major adjustments to make and there would be many, many deaths and riots due to no food, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #85 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteNope....he's comparing relative pollution levels between 2nd hand smoke and (much more prevalent) auto exhaust... Ok.. then I support a Catalytic Converter on his cigarrettes. I wouldn't think there's that much NO from a cigarette... but I could be wrong... Well, it appears you advocate smoking indoors, while we wouldn't run our cars indoors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #86 April 27, 2006 QuoteI wouldn't think there's that much NO from a cigarette... but I could be wrong... Oh it has that and a WHOLE lot more http://www.tobaccoscam.ucsf.edu/Secondhand/Secondhand_ti.cfm Here are some of the things you breathe in secondhand smoke, together with their common uses: Acetone ---------------------------------Nail polish remover Acetic Acid ---------------------------------Vinegar Aluminum--------------------------------- Metal Ammonia ---------------------------------Floor and toilet cleaner Arsenic ---------------------------------Rat poison Benzene--------------------------------- Industrial solvent Benzo(a)pyrene--------------------------------- Diesel exhaust Butane ---------------------------------Cigarette lighter fluid Cadmium ---------------------------------Rechargable batteries Copper ---------------------------------Electric wiring Carbon Monoxide--------------------------------- Auto exhaust DDT ---------------------------------Insecticide Dieldrin ---------------------------------Insecticide Formaldehyde ---------------------------------Preservative for dead bodies, wood, and fabrics Hexamine ---------------------------------Barbecue lighter Hydrogen Cyanide ---------------------------------Gas chamber poison Lead ---------------------------------Fishing sinkers Magnesium ---------------------------------Flares Methane ---------------------------------Swamp gas Methanol ---------------------------------Rocket and auto fuel Napthalene ---------------------------------Moth balls Nicotine ---------------------------------Insecticide and the addictive drug in tobacco Nitrobenzene ---------------------------------Gasoline additive Nitrous Oxide ---------------------------------Phenols Disinfectant Polonium 210 ---------------------------------Radioactive compound Silicon ---------------------------------Computer chips Silver ---------------------------------Jewelry Stearic Acid ---------------------------------Candle wax Titanium ---------------------------------Airplane and missles Toluene ---------------------------------Industrial solvent Vinyl Chloride ---------------------------------Raw material to make plastic Zinc Metal,--------------------------------- in pennies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #87 April 27, 2006 Ban it.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #88 April 27, 2006 Didn't realize that... thanks!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #89 April 27, 2006 Quote The point I was making is that you are diminishing smoking to just a bad habit. It's not just a bad habit, like chewing tobacco, where only the fool sucking on it is physically affected. Considerate smokers have a negliable influence on your health. Hell, it was hard enough to show the effects of substantial second hand smoke - which tells you how little harm you can claim walking outdoors. So yeah, it's a vice that hurts the user - it diminishes their cardio vascular performance, increases arterial blockage, and eventually is the leading cause of death for a third of the users. LA air used to be described as equilivent to pack a day smoking. And that wasn't coming from the smokers. If non smokers lungs are so important, then make everyone buy SULEV vehicles. Destroy all cars from the 80s and beyond. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #90 April 27, 2006 If your argument is that smoking increases health care costs for everyone, then you have to argue that ALL unhealthy activity should be banned. How about fast food? What about alcohol? healthy? Nope. Increase health care costs? Most likely. So unless you are willing to ban ALL unhealthy activity, stop singling out smokers. Heck, while we're at it, let's just require everyone to run 5 miles a day. Also, several studies have indicated that smoking LOWERS overall health care costs. Long term care for elderly, sickly people is very expensive, and smokers die younger, requiring lower care costs overall. I won't smoke near non-smokers, children or in public buildings. I in no way harm the health of any non-smoker. I hope to quit soon, but it is very difficult. So, for now, get of my friggin back! Zipp0 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #91 April 27, 2006 QuoteI won't smoke near non-smokers, children or in public buildings. I in no way harm the health of any non-smoker. I hope to quit soon, but it is very difficult. Every smoker "Claims" to be considerate like you are. Frankly, you and those like you are EXTREMELY rare. The others are ruining it for you. I appreciate your efforts because I hate the stuff. You can smell it from a long way off, so there is really no good place to smoke. I don't want a law, establishments that allow smoking can always cater to the poor that are primarily smokers - it's a big market. But I would like to be able to piss in the hair of the inconsiderate smokers and then act shocked when they get upset. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #92 April 27, 2006 Quote You can smell it from a long way off, so there is really no good place to smoke. Just because you can smell it doesn't mean it is harming you. When I put my dog out I can smell shit, but it's not the same as eating it. Quote I don't want a law, establishments that allow smoking can always cater to the poor that are primarily smokers - it's a big market. . Huh? Rich people don't smoke? I would put forward that this has nothing at all to do with it. The primary factor seems to be - did your parents smoke. Mine did, which seemed to lead me to it. And realisticly, do you think people WANT to smoke? I hate it. I hate spending $5 a pack on killing myself. Studies have shown that it is more addictive than heroin, and I believe it. Zipp0 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 April 27, 2006 QuoteHuh? Rich people don't smoke? I would put forward that this has nothing at all to do with it. 1 - even from a long ways off, I don't care if it harms me or not. It's gross and stupid and stinks. Your dog can't help but shit. People choose to smoke, if it's just the chemical addiction, there would be a market for pills or candy or gum that does the same thing without screwing up the air. Ever see how many butts are in the streets? 2 - "primarily" the poor smoke, I would put forward that it 'is' a class thing and an education thing and that the very group that is being exploited is the same one that can't afford it, can't afford the medical consequences and aren't educated enough to know just how bad this addiction is. My dad smoked - despite me almost dying at the age of 5 due to asthma. And he continued to smoke until well into his 50's. I'm very aware of the addictive aspects of smoking. I'd never touch the things. Good luck on quitting someday, you deserve the money and the freedom ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #94 April 27, 2006 Quote 1 - even from a long ways off, I don't care if it harms me or not. It's gross and stupid and stinks. Your dog can't help but shit. People choose to smoke, if it's just the chemical addiction, there would be a market for pills or candy or gum that does the same thing without screwing up the air. Ever see how many butts are in the streets? Aww, stop whining. Lots of things people do are gross and stupid. As far as butts in the street - there is lots of garbage in the streets. How about enforcing the litter laws - and not just against smokers. Quote 2 - "primarily" the poor smoke, I would put forward that it 'is' a class thing and an education thing and that the very group that is being exploited is the same one that can't afford it, can't afford the medical consequences and aren't educated enough to know just how bad this addiction is. So, what's your point? What about wealthy coke addicts, middle class potheads, and homeless wine-o's? By saying that, you are making it a 'poor' problem. Think about other diseases that 'primarily' affect only certain groups. Does that mean other people shouldn't be concerned? No. I am not poor, and I am not uneducated. I am addicted. Quote My dad smoked - despite me almost dying at the age of 5 due to asthma. And he continued to smoke until well into his 50's. I'm very aware of the addictive aspects of smoking. I'd never touch the things. That was just a bit inconsiderate of him. At the same time, you have no idea of the addiction. I sure do... Quote Good luck on quitting someday, you deserve the money and the freedom Thanks. Maybe I'll try the patch...... Zipp0 -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #95 April 27, 2006 Quote Me jumping out of an acft over farmland isn't going to poison you or anyone - you smkoing near me will slowly poison me. There, fixed it for ya. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fireballgrl 0 #96 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuote You can smell it from a long way off, so there is really no good place to smoke. Just because you can smell it doesn't mean it is harming you. When I put my dog out I can smell shit, but it's not the same as eating it. Quote I don't want a law, establishments that allow smoking can always cater to the poor that are primarily smokers - it's a big market. . Huh? Rich people don't smoke? I would put forward that this has nothing at all to do with it. The primary factor seems to be - did your parents smoke. Mine did, which seemed to lead me to it. And realisticly, do you think people WANT to smoke? I hate it. I hate spending $5 a pack on killing myself. Studies have shown that it is more addictive than heroin, and I believe it. Zipp0 Don't blame your addictions on your parents...I grew up with a father who smoked a pack and a half a day. That is a cop out...he is the primary reason I never picked up the habit, seeing how hard it was for him to quit and living with the nasty smoke. He has finally had to quit or choose to die doing it. It has literally come down to his health and whether he wants to see his grandkids or not. He has not smoked since January 1 and I am very proud of him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 April 27, 2006 Quote Don't blame your addictions on your parents... He wasn't making a blame statement. I'd be shocked if his assertion were false. Children follow their parent's leads on many fronts. I saw enough smokers in college and beyond to believe that the correlation between poverty and smoking isn't that great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #98 April 27, 2006 I smoke on occasion, but I think it should be banned in any public place that admits/serves anyone under 18. I also think that pot should be legal._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #99 April 27, 2006 QuoteI saw enough smokers in college and beyond to believe that the correlation between poverty and smoking isn't that great. My life experience tells me that there's a HUGE correlation in the US & Canada between socio-economic status and/or education and smoking. Yes, when I was in college (in the late 70's) a hell of a lot of college students smoked. But for that group, it was more of a micro stage-of-life thing; most of them gave it up by their mid-20's. But nowadays virtually nobody I know or come into contact with, between the ages of 25 and 60, who has a BA/BS degree or higher & works in a white-collar environment, smokes. I don't think I'm alone in that experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #100 April 27, 2006 http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:Em37yY4ynrsJ:elsa.berkeley.edu/~botond/incidence_tabs.wpd+smoking+rates+by+income&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 first number is by income, second is for specified education. So certainly there is less smoking at the higher income college educated, but not remotely in the ballpark of 'virtually nobody.' Smoking Rates by Income and Education Group Quartile or Group Income Quartiles Education Groups Bottom Quartile / HS Dropouts 33.4 34.6 Second Quartile / HS Grads 27.6 28.7 Third Quartile / Some College 23.7 22.4 Top Quartile / College Grads 16.1 11.2 Note: Tabulations of smoking rates by group from 1992-1999 Tobacco Use Supplements to the Consumer Expenditure Survey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
