kelpdiver 2 #26 April 25, 2006 People were fired a couple weeks back for taking Good Friday off after being told they needed to work. This one is a slam dunk too. Had they just called in 'sick,' maybe they'd have a weak case. Not if they were caught in their lie- people have been fired merely for attending political events (reporters). But labor law doesn't protect the right of employees to take off time for political purposes and be guaranteed a job at the end. Good business says he keeps one of them regardless, but I'd hope for all of us that he's not a lawyer so afraid of BS litigation that he'd cave for that reason alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #27 April 25, 2006 QuoteImmigrants? Or illegal immigrants? Tell them this. Anyone who's for illegal immigration is a sucker. What you said. Right on. I'm still perplexed that anyone with a brain thinks that these protestors have any leg to stand on whatsoever. What? They're FOR illegal immigration? Do they really know what they're protesting against? For all of those waving the Mexican flag... would they have us treat our southern border like Mexico treats theirs... with our army patrolling and shooting runners? It never ceases to amaze me. Lawrocket, you should have a talk with your employees to figure out what exactly they're FOR. Maybe you'll figure out that they're not really using their brains here or... maybe they'll see the light.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #28 April 25, 2006 If they were my employees, I'd tell them they can have they day off IF the deadlines are met. Otherwise, the request should be denied the same way you'd deny a vacation day request because of something really important. At my last job, they asked us not to take vacation time during budget if we could avoid it, because they really needed us. Don't see how your situation is much different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #29 April 25, 2006 As ever, the voice of reason - (also because I agree) good answer. edited to add : I've just had a holiday request turned down. I'm managing a project that's in a critcal phase and a mate has gone off long term sick, so I shoulder his burden... no big deal, there will be other holidays and my Program Manager will more likely feed me some slack if I need it due to my flexibility this time... (I hope) . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #30 April 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteI think I'd have to let these employees choose between working and not working. If they want a job, they come to work. If they don't want a job, they protest while people with jobs work....(what are they protesting???? working????) Good point in concept, but as a practical reality there are 2 difficulties with this approach: 1. He's in California, so those employees might have the ability to muster up quite a picket line of like-minded protestors against his office if they were really up to doing it. 2. Defending against not 1 but 2 race-based employment discrimination lawsuits, even if he wins both of them, would be incredibly expensive if he hires outside counsel (say in the range of about $30,000 per pop). Oh, and since alleged discrimination, generally being a willful act, and not mere negligence, is what's known in the insurance industry as an "intentional act", most insurance policies don't cover it, so he'd have to pay all those fees and expenses (as well as any settlement or judgment) out of his own pocket. Food for thought. That's unfortunate. I guess that's part of the beauty of living in rural Arkansas. It's easy to show an employee, who doesn't want to work, the door. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #31 April 25, 2006 QuotePeople were fired a couple weeks back for taking Good Friday off after being told they needed to work. This one is a slam dunk too. Had they just called in 'sick,' maybe they'd have a weak case. Not if they were caught in their lie- people have been fired merely for attending political events (reporters). The Good Friday employees might have somewhat of a case, whereas in my opinion LR's employees have no case. I wasn't predicting his employees would win in court, I am predicting that LR would win (based on my own experience handling employment discrimination cases.) But, to gain that victory in court, LR will have to incur substantial legal fees, which he's very unlikely to recoup from any source. So, it's less of a legal decision on his part than it is a straight business decision. QuoteBut labor law doesn't protect the right of employees to take off time for political purposes and be guaranteed a job at the end. Yes, that's correct. Quote I'd hope for all of us that he's not a lawyer so afraid of BS litigation that he'd cave for that reason alone. Well, it's a dilemma. Over the short run, he may do better accommodating. Over the long run, by accommodating he risks making himself a target for more bullshit in the future. Difficult choice. I like the suggestions that he should require them to be responsible by making the work up promptly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #32 April 25, 2006 QuoteI guess that's part of the beauty of living in rural Arkansas. It's easy to show an employee, who doesn't want to work, the door. Well, it's easy to do that in any employment-at-will state, which is the majority of US states. But it's easier to do it, without consequence, to a white Protestant male under age 40. As I said above, defending against an employment discrimination lawsuit, even if you win, can be extremely expensive; you usually aren't covered by insurance for the claim (and thus you pay your own legal fees); and even if you (the employer) win, it's next to impossible to get a court to award you your legal fees back (in the US). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #33 April 25, 2006 Well, not that it would solve the problem, only get their attention.. If you decided oh, Wednesday or some other random day was going to be *your* day of protest and closed the office - would you have to still pay them for that day?? Most people like to protest when it is convenient for them. If they were to lose a days pay they were not planning on for someone elses random schedule, they might gain a clearer understanding...or just be thankful for a non-paid vacation day...who knowsLife is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #34 April 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess that's part of the beauty of living in rural Arkansas. It's easy to show an employee, who doesn't want to work, the door. Well, it's easy to do that in any employment-at-will state, which is the majority of US states. But it's easier to do it, without consequence, to a white Protestant male under age 40. As I said above, defending against an employment discrimination lawsuit, even if you win, can be extremely expensive; you usually aren't covered by insurance for the claim (and thus you pay your own legal fees); and even if you (the employer) win, it's next to impossible to get a court to award you your legal fees back (in the US). I think I'd have to accept the risk. I do get your point, but I'd rather pay legal fees than have people working in my office who think that it's acceptable to leave me in a lurch so that they can protest. I'd just have to cut out the BS and meet 'em where the rubber meets the road. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #35 April 25, 2006 Quoteleave me in a lurch so that they can protest. That really should read: can protest something the employer doesn't agree with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #36 April 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteleave me in a lurch so that they can protest. That really should read: can protest something the employer doesn't agree with. no, that shouldn't read as such. LRs views on the matter are secondary to the business obligations that date. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #37 April 25, 2006 Quoteno, that shouldn't read as such. LRs views on the matter are secondary to the business obligations that date. I am not sure that holds true. If it was a national protest against street racing...would he have the same feelings towards this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 April 25, 2006 QuoteI am not sure that holds true. If it was a national protest against street racing...would he have the same feelings towards this? I think it does, having known a ton of independent small businessmen, the livelihood of the business and your employees trumps any desire for public demonstration. It's your child. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #39 April 25, 2006 QuoteI am not sure that holds true. If it was a national protest against street racing...would he have the same feelings towards this? The last time I attended a protest of any kind, I was in law school because I had the time to do it. When Diana was killed by the street racer, I was unable to attend her wake because I had meetings scheduled. I released two of my staff for the afternoon to attend it. If it was a national protest against street racing, I'd probably donate to the cause. But, unfortunately, I've got a whole bunch of people with their asses in my hands. And they would usually expect me to be there if they have a question. Consequently, I've got my ass in my employees' hands. It's why I pay them, and I expect to get something out of it, and if I have questions, I want them available to provide answers. I've taken one work day off in the last two years - August 10, 2004. My employees get time off for illness, family problems, school, etc. We work around that, and we know about it going in. But taking a day off so you can show people who don't need you how needed you are by those that do need you is a different story. "Honey, I had sex with that chick so I could show people that I've still got it." Message received.... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #40 April 25, 2006 I'm confused (lol ... not the first time). Are you employing illegals? If yes, then I'm sorry you're getting what you asked for. If not, well then I think it sucks and you have a right to be pissed. I followed the rules, so when the INS told me to get the fuck out of the USA, I honored my visa (so that I could come back in the future at the very least as a visitor). I just love the double standards your government is living by down there. People who follow the immigration rules get fucked, and people who ignore them are allowed to stay. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #41 April 25, 2006 Ha... we've got it even worse in the U.K today ... a load of illegals (and real [BAD] criminals to boot) have been 'lost' by our government - shit-heads clicky . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 April 25, 2006 No, both are US citizens of Mexican descent. QuoteI followed the rules, so when the INS told me to get the fuck out of the USA, I honored my visa (so that I could come back in the future at the very least as a visitor). Followed the rules? Ha. Then you got what you deserved, if you hear the way the societal tide is going. QuotePeople who follow the immigration rules get fucked, and people who ignore them are allowed to stay. Yep. To restore rules is to create havoc. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #43 April 25, 2006 QuoteFollowed the rules? Ha. Then you got what you deserved, if you hear the way the societal tide is going. Well if that's the way you feel, stop your bitching and deal with you delinquent employees (either fire them or give them the day off). You clearly support illegal immigration and the free-for-all it's created with this sort of attitude. And while you're at it, stop whining about your National Security because it's open season on the US borders. If you guys aren't willing to secure them, then why should you care about who's crossing them. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #44 April 25, 2006 I thought that last part about the societal tide indicated my sarcasm about you getting "what you deserved." It's unfortunate that those who play by the rules get screwed. Personally, I think your situation sucks, and it just isn't right. I know the stuff my best friend (a Canadian) goes through. Bush himself said today, "We can't just deport 11 million people." It got up to 11 million people. And we've got a Department of Homeland Security. There are 11 million of them. And they all didn't come over yesterday. Stories like yours are the ones that piss me off the most. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #45 April 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteleave me in a lurch so that they can protest. That really should read: can protest something the employer doesn't agree with. Either way, if they are employed by me, then they're hired to do the job that I hired them to do. Work time isn't their personal time. If they saw fit to NOT work during work time, then I'd have to let them go. These are some of the things that might lead an employer to hire white men rather than an equally qualified minority. White men don't usually protest on their employers' time. Edited to add: on second thought, maybe they do. There are unions. So I don't know if that statement holds or not.... Have to think about it for a minute.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #46 April 25, 2006 Quote I thought that last part about the societal tide indicated my sarcasm I didn't catch that and because of this I apologize if I came off the wrong way. QuoteStories like yours are the ones that piss me off the most. I didn't get deported. I voluntarily left before it got to that point. It's just the INS had been making getting a work visa harder and harder year after year to the point where I finally said "fuck it" it's not worth the hassle. I left so that I could come back as a visitor whenever I wanted and maybe if circumstances change in the future, I might seek employment again in the US. But I wouldn't be moving all my stuff down like I did last time. QuoteBush himself said today, "We can't just deport 11 million people." I actually agree with him. The logicistics, let alone the impact to the economy is mind boggling. What I don't understand is why Bush isn't doing anything about securing the borders (and I'm not talking about passing laws that require people to possess passports). Sure it's a big border and sure it won't be cheap. But if Bush really was serious about National Security he would actually spend the money and put the people (I would assume it would be the armed forces) on the border(s). But Bush is full of rhetoric. He wants people to think that he's made a difference in the US's National Security issues. But thousands and thousands of migrants, drug dealers and who knows how many terrorists are crossing your borders everyday. You're 11 million illegals will be 100 million illegals before you know it. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #47 April 25, 2006 Quote Quote I thought that last part about the societal tide indicated my sarcasm I didn't catch that and because of this I apologize if I came off the wrong way. Sounds like you need lessons from Captain SubtextDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #48 April 26, 2006 QuoteYou're 11 million illegals will be 100 million illegals before you know it. If they keep getting granted amnesty, sure. Those people will be able to openly work, so there would be room for 11 million more to work in the grey areas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misaltas 0 #49 April 26, 2006 QuoteBush himself said today, "We can't just deport 11 million people." If Bush and Congress believe we need these 11 million workers, one way to do it would be to open up 11 million visas. If they go back to their country and apply, and have no criminal record, they can have one, come back, and enjoy the american dream. The criminals who stay, we can throw them out when we catch them. And the employers who hire illegals can be made to pay the price too: fines, jail. You won't have to deport anyone. They'll all go back on their own. And then come back the right way.Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 April 26, 2006 Quote 11 million more to work in the grey areas. Detroit? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
