Retired US Iraq general demands Rumsfeld resign

[stoneycase 0]

rumsfeld, the greatest sec of def.

yeah, right. i hope you're joking. the only piece of paper that could ever say that would be his autobiography.

please don't start rambling about re-organization...yes it's important, yes there is a new "area of threat" or w/e you would like to call it. but i would like to remind of you this quote, before you start spouting how wonderful his plans were/are:

"We trained hard...,but it seemed that everytime we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized...I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization." Petronious Arbiter, 210BC

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[mnealtx 0]

So with that quote, what are your opinions of Cheney, Aspin, Perry, and Cohen? All were SecDef during periods of major reorganizing of the military.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[stoneycase 0]

not sure what the point of your question is - are you just trying to ensenuate that i could never think any sec of def is "good" therefore my opinion of the current sec of def is invalid?

re-org can be good, and it's fine by me. i was just trying to head off the "but but he re-org'ed us so the terrorists/muslims can't win therefore he is the jesus christ of secretaries of defense" argument. bec, imo, that's a ridiculous argument. there's a long list of military and civilian people that contributed to that re-org, long before rumsfeld put pen to paper. this guy, for one: http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/published/pentagonsnewmap.htm (good book btw, i don't agree with all parts, but obviously this guy knows his $hit)

of that list there, the only person that's relevant to this issue, imo, would be cheney, as this thread is talking about this current administration and it's current sec of defense.

and as far as cheney is concerned, he is the exact reason why so many people in history were worried about defense contractors getting involved in politics at the highest levels. imo. another quote for you ;)

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex." - Eisenhower, 1961

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[mnealtx 0]

No, I wanted to see if your problem was with the reorganization aspect, since that was the main focus of your post. You seemed to be implying that reorganizing the military was a bad thing.

Since you mention it, if Cheney is the only valid one since you're talking about the current administration, then neither your prior quote nor your current one from Eisenhower are valid.

Now, if you just had PROOF about your Cheney accusation.... if getting a pension = influence, then there's a lot of retired corporate officers in all branches of gov't that need a closer looking at...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[stoneycase 0]

my main problem was thinking rumsfeld was a good def sec *because* of the re-org. i posted the quote to remind everyone that just because the org chart looks different, doesn't neccessarily mean you're more productive/efficient/etc. therefore, theres no reason to go running off defending rummy by pointing to his "success" with the re-org

and actually, both quotes still remain valid, imo
1 - goes to show just how "beneficial" a re-org can be, including any re-org done by mr rumsfeld.
2 - not only goes to the question about the military industrial complex (and therefore mr cheney), but it also highlights how EXPERIENCE and PAST HISTORY are extremely important in evaluating candidates for public office (back to rummy again)

disagree?

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[billvon 3,120]

Up to six generals asking him to resign now:

Swannack
Newbold
Eaton
Zinni
Batiste
Riggs

What a bunch of America-hating losers, eh? They must not understand the realities of war like Rumsfeld does.

[stoneycase 0]

those generals don't have the *correct experience* /sarcasm

oh, and their work ethic sucks. it's not as good as rummy's, therefore he is smarter

(sorry folks, but just because you spend 10hrs reading every night doesn't make you bright. working hard is great and all, but at the end of the day its *comprehension* that counts. and some might even argue, working harder is idiotic - work smarter)

loved this quote from a seattle pi article:

Bush's dilemma, said Michael O'Hanlon, a military analyst with the Brookings Institution, is that Bush "shares a lot of the responsibility for the key decisions on Iraq."

"Bush is implicated. For Bush to fire Rumsfeld is for Bush to declare himself a failure as president. Iraq is the main issue of his presidency,"

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_Rumsfeld_Generals.html

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[rehmwa 2]

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Up to six generals asking him to resign now:

Swannack
Newbold
Eaton
Zinni
Batiste
Riggs

What a bunch of America-hating losers, eh? They must not understand the realities of war like Rumsfeld does.

So what percent of all the Generals is 6?

Considering that the US is about 50/50 dem/rep, would you say 6 of all flag ranking officers is equivalent to about the same percentage of citizens that are in the same camp?

Why I wouldn't doubt that flag ranking officers are about 50/50 in politics, about 65% not happy with the pres, about 20% neutral, about 15% ok with him. Of those, there is likely about 5% that rabidly supportive and about 5% that are rabidly against him.

Does 6 speaking out fit the normal national stats as a contained subgroup?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

All I can say is that any attempt to use statistical analysis to devalue the real-world significance of:

Quote

Swannack
Newbold
Eaton
Zinni
Batiste
Riggs

...is exactly the sort of thing that bred the expression: "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

[stoneycase 0]

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All I can say is that any attempt to use statistical analysis to devalue the real-world significance of:

Quote

Swannack
Newbold
Eaton
Zinni
Batiste
Riggs

...is exactly the sort of thing that bred the expression: "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

LOL, i was just going to say...

and, imo, if you really wanted to try and do something 'slightly meaningful' to determine their 'real value' - why don't you look @ time in Iraq (or time spent working on it) and # of troops commanded.

oh wait, that's not gonna work for the Bush supporters. ever heard of "The Big Red 1". last i checked, that was one of the army's largest infantry divisions (i could be dead wrong, but i dont think so) and the last man to command them in Iraq, for a year, was Gen Batiste.

also, the fact that these general's span the different branches of the armed services...kinda says something...too bad it isn't 'everythings swell'.

another article: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1842450

Batiste, who commanded the 1st Infantry Division forces in Iraq, said he declined an opportunity to get a promotion to the rank of lieutenant general and return to the wartorn country as the No. 2 U.S. military officer because he could not accept Rumsfeld's tough management style.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

All I can say is that any attempt to use statistical analysis to devalue the real-world significance of:

Quote

Swannack
Newbold
Eaton
Zinni
Batiste
Riggs

...is exactly the sort of thing that bred the expression: "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

I do not devalue their significance, and if you other flag officers that aren't on that list, you wouldn't devalue their positions or judgement in any way either like you just did.

My point is that people have the right to their opinions. The officers too. And like all people with opinions, they also are represented within and across their population subgroups.

And belittling statistics, that's just mean.

I feel like Kallend on this one. I just point out a flaw in conclusion making and data usage. No more. - I DON'T put forth any position, then get dumped into one side or the other. Nice

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

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And belittling statistics, that's just mean.

Sigh.
You're right. I feel like such a heel.

[Andy9o8 2]

News report today:

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Brushing aside intensifying criticism, the president says the defense secretary's leadership has been "exactly what is needed."
–Associated Press, April 14, 2006

Totally.
Fucking.
Clueless.

[JohnRich 4]

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And still the Bush Administration doesn't get it.

Gen. Grant had lots of critics in the Civil War. Did President Lincoln "not get it"?

Likewise, with Generals such as Halsey, Lemay, Montgomery, Patton and MacArthur.

But they all won battles and wars.

Just because you can find someone that criticizes them, doesn't mean that their methods won't work to win the war.

[Zenister 0]

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And still the Bush Administration doesn't get it.

Gen. Grant had lots of critics in the Civil War. Did President Lincoln "not get it"?

Likewise, with Generals such as Halsey, Lemay, Montgomery, Patton and MacArthur.

But they all won battles and wars.

Just because you can find someone that criticizes them, doesn't mean that their methods won't work to win the war.

non sequitor.. those were GENERALS (Subject Matter Experts in their fields) Fighting a War, NOT a Civilian (and one without real experience or expertise) telling the Generals how to do their job, over their objections, experience and expertise.....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JohnRich 4]

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NOT a Civilian (and one without real experience or expertise) telling the Generals how to do their job, over their objections, experience and expertise.....

I don't think you've read Rumsfield's biography.

Please provide evidence that all the Generals disagree with Rumsfield. Or even a majority of them.

The count that I've seen is just four. That ain't much, considering all the thousands of Generals in the various branches of the Armed Services. It doesn't surprise me at all that out of thousands of like people, that some of them will disagree with the others. Does that automatically make the few dissidents the correct ones? Hardly.

[billvon 3,120]

>Please provide evidence that all the Generals disagree with
> Rumsfield. Or even a majority of them.

I have posted the names of six who disagree with him, and have publically said so. Can you post the names of six who have publically supported him over the same time frame?

[rehmwa 2]

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The count that I've seen is just four. That ain't much, considering all the thousands of Generals in the various branches of the Armed Services.

Yeah, like army Generals and Marine Generals and Navy Generals and... wait a second

Stop with the pointless statistics. damn lies. These brave 4 men had to overcome all the brainwashing that those indoctrinated in the military are put through. Just to arrive at the PC position that we so crave.

You are such a cheese eater, I bet you think cilantro is a neat herb.

(oh, just in case <== note the funny faces)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

I would be interested in the views of those like Shinseki who told the administration what to expect in Iraq and then were forced to retire.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1181629,00.html

Two senior military officers are known to have challenged Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the planning of the Iraq war. Army General Eric Shinseki publicly dissented and found himself marginalized. Marine Lieut. General Greg Newbold, the Pentagon's top operations officer, voiced his objections internally and then retired, in part out of opposition to the war. Here, for the first time, Newbold goes public with a full-throated critique:

[Channman 2]

Nothing more than the Drive by media, running around trying to get names of generals who don't support Rumsfield. Just listening to the talking heads from channel to channel and the print news they are saying almost the exact lines and phrases.

The talking points are clear that this is no more than a smear campaign worthy of no more than a few post in SC.


Some time in the near future I'm sure someone will come up with a far more interesting topic then this tired old crap i.e. one more thing to bash this current administration. I think a good topic for the future would be Ann Coulter's new book. The religion of liberalism, "God Less" that should bring about spirited debate. I think that title is correct.

Therefore I will ban myself for the remainder of the week, and wish everyone a happy weekend / Easter

Just a quick edit, still trying to understand the importants of a girl running around with tape over her month? I'm sure there is a message trying to get out.

[billvon 3,120]

>Nothing more than the Drive by media, running around trying to get
>names of generals who don't support Rumsfield.

Exactly! We should ignore what those clueless generals say, and instead get all our news from Rush Limbaugh, who really knows what it's like over there in Iraq.

>this is no more than a smear campaign . . .

A quote from the Rev. William Sloane Coffin fits here:

Hope criticizes what is, hopelessness rationalizes it.
Hope resists, hopelessness adapts.

>Some time in the near future I'm sure someone will come up with a
> far more interesting topic then this tired old crap . . . .

Fear not! When the next president is elected, you will suddenly discover thousands of bad things to post about her, and they will all seem (to you) like excellent new crap.

[Amazon 7]

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Fear not! When the next president is elected, you will suddenly discover thousands of bad things to post about her, and they will all seem (to you) like excellent new crap.

Well about then we could start getitng posts about how cool the right wing guys think their local militia is.

Notice we have not heard anything in years about the hard core right wing militias who are out in the woods practicing for an overthrow of the government to proct the morality and american way of life.

[stoneycase 0]

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I don't think you've read Rumsfield's biography.

i've read what's posted on defense link. i don't see anything in there that indicates Rumsfeld has half as much "time in the field" as any one of the 6 now retired Generals that are criticizing him. did i miss something?

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Please provide evidence that all the Generals disagree with Rumsfield. Or even a majority of them.

like i said above, if you want to try and place statistical value on these Ret Gen's opinions than i suggest you look @ their time in the sand and the number of men underneath them. upon first glimpe of only one: Gen Batiste, it becomes painfully clear that the value of their opinion is rather high.

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The count that I've seen is just four. That ain't much, considering all the thousands of Generals in the various branches of the Armed Services.

like bill said, it's 6. from different branches even. so both the army, and the marine corps have it wrong, while Mr. Rumsfeld has it right?

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It doesn't surprise me at all that out of thousands of like people, that some of them will disagree with the others.

you're right, the larger the group of people, the more likely it is that everyone will have a differing opinion. but lets put this in context: you've got 6 men, career military men, at some of the highest leadership posts, out in the field, coming back and saying "something is wrong with our leadership at the OSD". comeon, you're going to put that in a drawer and just label it "another opinion"? i don't see any of these 6 running for office, i don't see any of these 6 out there charging $10K on the lecture circuit. for some reason, i guess i tend to value their, imo, honest opinion as someone who has *actually been there and doing the job*

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Does that automatically make the few dissidents the correct ones? Hardly.

no, but instead of calling them "dissidents" why don't you give them the respect they are due, after all, they've served this country for almost their entire life. do you think they woke up a few months ago and decided they no longer wanted to be an american citizen? no, and if you look even closer you'll see these men are die hard "we cannot fail, we must not fail, failure is not an option" types. these are men that want to get the job done. these are men that want to bring all their soldiers home to mom. they're sick and tired of the leadership (or lack thereof) and you criticize them as if they are deserters.

and then folks go and wonder why its difficult for someone in the military to actually voice their opinion to their superiors. hell they can't even do it after they've retired without being labeled "dissenters". i've never had my feet in the sand, but i'll be damned if i take rumsfeld's, or bush's, word over any of these men.

Batiste turned down a promotion to be #2 on the ground in Iraq. #2. What, do you think, is going through the mind of a career officer that decides to turn down a top post like that? Something tells me it's a lot, and we should all take a step back and look at what his decision says about leadership that is managing (or mis-managing) this "War on Terrorism" Batiste didn't say he turned down the job, so he could retire and fly-fish. He didn't say his wife wanted him home, or that he wanted to spend time with the kids/grandkids.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[kallend 2,150]

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NOT a Civilian (and one without real experience or expertise) telling the Generals how to do their job, over their objections, experience and expertise.....

I don't think you've read Rumsfield's biography.

Please provide evidence that all the Generals disagree with Rumsfield. Or even a majority of them.

The count that I've seen is just four. That ain't much, considering all the thousands of Generals in the various branches of the Armed Services. It doesn't surprise me at all that out of thousands of like people, that some of them will disagree with the others. Does that automatically make the few dissidents the correct ones? Hardly.

The Billy Mitchell case made it clear that senior active duty officers can't criticize without fear of court marshal and conviction for insubordination. Taking only those senior officers free to criticize (the retirees) and who have actually served in Iraq as the set of qualified commentators, it seems the critics are a pretty large subset.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[matthewcline 0]

Those Six General Officer's are not alone.
Look up some past Issues of Army, Marine, Navy or Air Force Times. You'll read a few Lower Ranked Officers and many Enlisted feal the same.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!